What Is Masculinity?

Sunday, March 21, 2021

What Is It

Strong, in control, and stoic—these are traits of the ideal masculine man. Men who fail to conform to this ideal are often penalized, particularly if they are men of color, queer men, working-class men, or men with disabilities. So how do we create different visions of masculinity that make room for all kinds of men? Should we abandon the idea of masculinity altogether, or would that be throwing out the baby with the bathwater? Which models of masculinity will bring us closer to gender justice in the 21st century? The philosophers man their mics with Robin Dembroff from Yale University, author ofReal Men on Top: The Metaphysics of Patriarchy(in progress).

Listening Notes

21世纪的男子气概需要改头换面吗?作为一个人,你的性别是否应该影响你?雷认为男子气概是父权制的工具,应该被拒绝,但布莱基反驳说,男子气概可能有多种定义,不需要全部依赖于狭隘和刻板的期望。Ray is skeptical of a solution that would introduce more stereotypes into the mix, and they maintain that people should simply focus on what they have in common with all human beings.

The co-hosts are joined by Robin Dembroff, Professor of Philosophy at Yale University, who argues that any idea of what someone must be or ought to be on the basis of gender is constrictive. Ray asks how their critique differs from standard critiques of masculinity, and Robin explains that their view emphasizes the close connection between masculinity and maleness. Blakey questions the ability to separate the two concepts, which prompts Robin to define masculinity as standing in opposition to femininity. Ray then considers how men are advantaged and disadvantaged by sexism due to the intersectionality between gender, race, class, and disability.

在节目的最后一部分,雷,布莱基和罗宾讨论了权力和男子气概之间的联系以及性别的行为方面。雷提出了将男子气概的定义扩大到男人所做的任何事情的可能性,但罗宾警告说这可能是不可能的。Blakey询问可以采取哪些可行的措施来创造更多的性别平等,Robin建议在出生证明、学校和监禁系统等正式机构中废除性别。

  • Roving Philosophical Report (Seek to 3:05) →Ariella Markowitz talks to people who are helping men rethink their relationship to masculinity, such as clinical psychologists, second wave feminists, and health researchers.

  • From the Community (Seek to 42:42) →雷和主持人约翰·佩里讨论了什么构成煽动。

Transcript

Transcript

Ray Briggs
21世纪的男子气概需要改头换面吗?

Blakey Vermule
作为一个人,你的性别是否应该影响你?

Ray Briggs
Why think there's just one thing it means to be a man?

Comments(13)


Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Sunday, February 28, 2021 -- 4:58 AM

Your question regarding the

你关于男性化的问题似乎与我对你另外两篇文章的看法一致:厌女症和女性关怀。Men, whether particularly masculine or not so much,
感受到了来自女权运动和其他亲妇女势力的压力和压力。从公平和平等的角度来看,这被认为是一件好事。另一方面,它也可以被认为是侵蚀性的:唐纳德·j·特朗普(Donald J. Trump)登上总统宝座就是一个很好的例子。

不满的男性对特朗普的支持和支持不成比例。他发誓要为他在选举中的失败报仇,而这些人正兴高采烈地支持他。这是示范。And, I think
unhelpful. It encourages further erosion of democracy, in the sense of encouraging a revenge whch has no valid referrent: He lost the contest, fair and square. His insistence that it was rigged is , itself, a sham. But, obviously, brawny, masculline men may choose to feel differently and act on the feeling.
To use a part of my mantra, they are NOT ready to try harder, think better and cut the crap.

通情达理的人可能不同意。当然……

Guessedworker's picture

Guessedworker

Thursday, March 4, 2021 -- 1:36 AM

Critical Theory never was

批判理论从来不是哲学,它目前的任何推断也不是哲学。他们是反白人的种族敌意,只对过度社会化、后宗教信仰的信仰者有价值,对他们来说,激进的左翼提供了反抗自己人格缺陷的手段。

It does not matter to them that their arguments are circular, their certainties self-proving, their justifications hypocritical self-deceptions. It does not matter that equality does not and cannot exist in Nature, and therefore in humanity, and that cause is a total waste of everybody’s time. It does not matter that there is no Marx Factor whirring away inside the human brain, cross-checking with flawless efficiency over the mountains and deserts and oceans to make quite sure that no one with white skin has evolved a difference above the neck or below the belt from someone with black or brown or yellow skin. It does not matter that being a man or a woman is not a personal choice because, y’know, you can’t choose your chromosomes. It does not matter that reproductively whole men and women, in whom the future of humanity is vested, are not equal to the reproductively disabled “letter people”. None of it matters because it’s religion. It’s all just a desperate, pathetically immature faith-rebellion in the maximally damaging cause of a relativistic universe voided of all annoyingly “white” and “masculine” absolutes like reality, facts, truth and, especially, inheritance. Would that these strange political animals had all been practising Christians after all. Then the most they could have done to save themselves would have been to go and prey in church every Sunday.

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Wednesday, March 10, 2021 -- 6:28 AM

Guessed,

Guessed,

你从哪弄来的?“平等在自然中不存在,也不可能存在”。性别平等存在于许多物种中,不平等也存在于许多物种中。

I'm not sure what you are saying there.

Guessedworker's picture

Guessedworker

Friday, April 2, 2021 -- 2:57 AM

I might ask you the same

I might ask you the same question. On what definite basis, bereft of ascription, is the assumption of human equality in Nature made? (The same could be asked of the rest of mammalian life.)

我们所知道的是,性别差异是绝对的,并给予不同的形式、功能(包括社会生物学特征)和代价。以谎言为基础制定的意识形态将产生社会病态,这是20世纪以平等之名进行种族灭绝的历史无可指证的证据。难道现在不是人类与自然合作而不是对抗它的时候吗?

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Saturday, April 3, 2021 -- 7:28 AM

GW,

GW,

I'm not sure about 'will,' but I agree with you that ideology based on a lie 'can' produce social pathology.

Though you didn't answer my question, I will try and answer yours as it relates somewhat to your statement that equality can not exist in Nature. Rightfully I can't answer your question, however, without "ascribing" cause to Nature in the first place. I don't do that. You do. Why? There are too many forms of nature in Nature for absolutes.

If we have to limit nature to mammals (you didn't do that initially but do now – why?), then certain breeds of coyotes, apes like bonobos, and monkeys like northern muriquis all are examples of biological equality. The spotted hyena has interesting sexual dimorphism as the females are dominant. Montane and Prairie voles are equally fascinating.

除了生存,平等对动物来说意义不大,性别甚至更不重要。这些都是人类的问题。人格化或动物形塑化可能会误导人,通常是被误导的。

Men and Women are not equals, just as men and men are not equals. The difference in these populations' means is not indicative of the overlap in the spread around those means. Equality stems from their moral standing. This is the human equality that is at issue here. In this respect, it is time to work with human nature and not against women or men regardless of whether they are predominately masculine or feminine.

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Friday, March 12, 2021 -- 4:04 PM

No. I do not understand. I

No. I do not understand. I have suggested readings for insight into this and other questions. Susan Jacoby and Steven Pinker are two of my favorites There are dozens others. I don't contend these public intellectuals are 100% right, only that they offer valuable perspectives. I figure I still have a lot to learn. Life is just too short. We just do the best we can, with what we've got and what we know...
Warmest Regards.

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Friday, March 19, 2021 -- 8:10 PM

Sex and gender are two

Sex and gender are two different things. Though we scientifically understand next to nothing about sexual orientation, we know something about gender and much more about sex. Most of us don't question our sex or gender, especially men, comfortable with their maleness and masculinity. Why should they? They are 'Real Men On Top' as Robin's forthcoming book is titled.

Here's why. There is no state or country where men outlive women. Being male kills men. Men are victims of crime at much higher rates than women as well. Men commit homicides nearly nine times as often as women. The stats go on and on.

There are biological reasons for this disparity, but social norms that don't support males through adulthood bring much pain and harm. That may seem odd to say men need support when they are the criminals and lottery winners with respect to wages and opportunity. Nevertheless, it is perhaps true. That men rarely are open and honest about their lives is further fodder for change.

The absolute best solution for the ills of masculinity is equal rights for women. Once we correct that wrong, we can genuinely share the childcare and parenting that perforce humanizes.

尽管男性气质和女性气质存在巨大差异,但女性和男性的相似之处多于不同之处。在认知上,两性之间的差异远远大于两性之间的差异。SARS 2可能逆转了女性在工作中的趋势。希望我们能纠正那艘船。男性的生命取决于它。

//www.f8r7.com/blog/what-makes-man

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Sunday, March 21, 2021 -- 9:23 PM

Hmm... I'm not sure I liked

Hmm... I'm not sure I liked this show. Yet, just when I get heated Robin would say something reasonable. Overall I think there is too much here I disagree with to let this go without comment.

我看不到一条清晰的道路——这是我对任何职业哲学家的要求。清晰和方向……嗯。我不明白。Let me re-listen and write in a comment on this show, then come back and post it here.

I don't think this is going to be an easy edit. Robin is wrong on the science, the immutability of masculinity and femininity, and historical trajectory. This isn't going to be fun but maybe I am just not hearing this right.

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Friday, March 26, 2021 -- 8:23 PM

Complete androgen

Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) and 5-alpha reductase 2 deficiency give me pause to accept Robin’s views toward masculinity. These can manifest in gonadal male youth being raised as girls until puberty, when their intersex is discovered. Any view of masculinity must include these males and protect their freedom, childhood, and bodies. This would entail a philosophical commitment to careful, cautious, and enlightened nurturing of all children through puberty and adulthood. Protecting youth is where masculinity philosophers need to focus their thought.

Parenting is a counterexample to the complementarity argument for using masculinity for its explanatory sake. Sensuality, pleasure, and friendship are other examples. Humans have standard biology, purpose, and meaning in life that far outweighs their gender differences.

女权主义心理学利用性别来讨论女性的问题、价值和解放,而性别哲学家有责任抵制这种心理学。这不是令人愉快或受欢迎的工作。无论Dembroff是否同意,这都是男性观的基础。他们应该对它说话。哲学需要比罗宾在这里所表达的更广阔的视角。

性别、手术重建和权力的历史在道德上是有问题的。如果他们想要谈论功利主义的男子气概,Dembroff需要更清楚地指出这些(我听到了,但这必须是一个主要和基本的原则)。女性身体的问题在很大程度上是男性的问题。

Overall I’m impressed with Robin’s theses and look forward to reading and reacting to this book. Sex, gender, sexual orientation, behavior, and sensuality are crucial to a happy life. It’s hard to be critical when this book is forthcoming, and I didn’t attend the show. This show didn’t go where I thought it would, and now I’m sorry not to have written in questions for Dr. Dembroff.

Cross post with Blog -//www.f8r7.com/blog/what-makes-man

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Wednesday, March 24, 2021 -- 7:17 AM

Sometimes, in my case anyway,

有时候,至少对我来说,有些东西会从过去几年读过的一些记忆文本中浮现出来。我之前提到过朱利安·杰恩斯。他不像某些人那么有名,但他的两院制思想仍然困扰着我的意识,或者在我思考其他问题时刺激着我的神经。男子气概。从我很小的时候起,这就一直是让我恼火的地方。我想知道,拿不定主意是不是一种进退两难的局面?我隐约地意识到,男人对自己的看法非常全面。他们敏锐地意识到自己的公众形象,并希望把自己塑造成他们认为最好的形象。这在很大程度上取决于贵族身份:与谁在一起,在哪里,他们感到自在,“心安理得”。这本身并不是智力模糊的表现。 They just want to have somewhere to hang their hat. Or hunt turkeys.

就像杰恩斯的两院制男人一样,他们并不能真正做出自己的决定:他们选择一个最舒适的模板,并允许他们的态度和行为被所选择的群体塑造。
Philosophy of psychology? I think so. Others must decide for themselves. Turkeys are difficult prey.
如果你遵守规则的话。

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Thursday, March 25, 2021 -- 9:18 AM

Difficult as it may be, this

尽管困难重重,但这只火鸡值得狩猎,需要宰杀,不幸的是,味道很糟糕。在这种程度上,我怀疑我能让任何哲学家在这里射击,但马鞍上!狩猎开始了。

Jaynes is a must-read but retrospectively ignorant and foolish. Imagining a preliterate brain is a just-so story. Thinking of the brain as bicameral was useful, perhaps, is no longer helpful and will be thought of as quaint. That said, were Jaynes alive today – he would have three or four more books out and be considered an authority and top-notch philosopher on par with Daniel Dennett or Richard Dawkins for his theory of mind/self.

但这个节目/博客不是关于詹尼斯的。不幸的是,这是关于罗宾·登布洛夫和不恰当的男子气概。登布洛夫说得很好,也许让我思考/塑造了一点,但显然是跑题了。

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Friday, March 26, 2021 -- 6:37 PM

I'm going to re-read Jaynes

I'm going to re-read Jaynes and reconsider this comment. It's been too long and my take is too old to justify. I do feel like he got short shrift and was way ahead of the curve. Sometimes I can be too dismissive. This is one of those times.

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Monday, March 29, 2021 -- 5:43 AM

I did just finish this. I'm

I did just finish this. I'm still saying it's far out there but if Freud gets a show Jaynes should as well. What may be the most interesting about Jaynes is his following.

需要仔细阅读才能指出这本书的所有问题,但很容易,5个观点中有4个是完全错误的,但这本书已经有45年的历史了,所以这并没有那么糟糕。大多数最好的观点都是由丹尼尔·丹尼特阐述的,没有任何错误或狭隘之处。其中一个问题是如何定义意识。但值得赞扬的是,Jaynes在他的作品中提到了许多主要的批评。

丹尼特的所有作品,以及贾里德·戴蒙德的《枪炮、病菌与钢铁》和尤瓦尔·哈里里的《智人》都可以成为更好的阅读材料。所有这些书都有杰恩斯所做的深度,但没有失去细节和信息。

其中一个例子(还有很多例子)是杰恩斯指出图雷特综合症与精神分裂症类似。你必须放松这些想法,才能找到金子。心灵不是也从来就不是两院制的。

All the negativity aside, this would make a great show if the right guest could be found to really dig down on this. I don't see any comprehensive critiques. Nautilus did an article on Jaynes in 2015.

When you take the time to come to terms with an author, it can be hard to see the forest from the specualtions. Often I am taken in. Not this time.