是什么造就了一个人?

19 March 2021

21世纪的男子气概需要改头换面吗?作为一个人,你的性别是否应该影响你?为什么你觉得作为一个男人只有一件事?This week on中国伊朗亚洲杯比赛直播, we’re discussingmasculinity是什么造就了一个男人。

Many people are suspicious of traditional masculine ideals, and for good reasons. We live in a culture that expects men to be dominant, powerful, and good at suppressing feelings (other than anger). These expectations, often called “toxic masculinity,对男性本身是有害的,因为男性的理想是难以实现和痛苦的。对于那些不得不面对男性攻击的人来说,它们也是有害的。

Critics of masculinity typically don’t think that men are irredeemably bad; a set of expectations can be bad without reflecting negatively on the people who are subject to those expectations. But you might worry that we’ve dismissed the expectations themselves too quickly. Isn’t it possible to masculine in positive ways? Men can be caring fathers, or shy introverts, or figure skaters, and none of that should shed doubt on their identities as men. Maybe what we really need is a more flexible concept of masculinity.

On the other hand, what’s the point of having a concept of masculinity at all, if anything a man does counts as masculine? Why not focus on what we have in common as human beings instead of needlessly gendering everything? There are very few traits foundonlyin men; there are women whocoach NFL teams,operate ham radio stations, andgrow beards. These traits might be statistically more common in men than in women, but they’re not more appropriate in one gender than another.

One possible response is to draw inspiration from ideals of masculinity, while being more flexible about who can embody those ideals. Nobody should be unfeeling, domineering, or violent, but there are good things about being strong, straightforward, or (to some extent) self-sacrificing. Perhaps it’s possible to clean up our masculine ideals, trimming away the morally worse parts, and making them flexible enough for anyone to opt in.

It’s also important to give people space to opt out. Expecting all men to have powerful muscles is unfairly burdensome to disabled men; expecting all men to be primary breadwinners is unrealistic in a capitalist economy with a widening divide between the haves and have-nots. There’s nothing wrong with being muscular or providing for your family, but it is unfair to place these expectations on everyone. Being perceived as masculine isn’t always beneficial either;black men in the US are doing worse than black women by many measures, and those who are perceived as large or tall are likelier to end up in jail.

那么,我们是应该彻底抛弃男子气概,还是简单地为其正名呢?我们甚至不清楚男子气概是一回事。Sociologist Raewyn Connell argues that we should think in terms ofmasculinities, which “are multiple, with internal complexities and even contradictions,” differ across times and places, and are influenced by women as well as men. So perhaps a better question is: which masculinities should we cultivate (if any), and which should fall by the wayside?

I’m excited to explore more about masculinity with special co-host Blakey Vermeule and guest Robin Dembroff, author ofReal Men on Top: The Metaphysics of Patriarchy(forthcoming). I hope you’ll join us on this week’s show!

Image byMustangJoefromPixabay

Comments(10)


Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Friday, March 19, 2021 -- 1:23 PM

祝你演出顺利!I

祝你演出顺利!如果一切顺利,我会去冰岛。那里有真正的男人和女人。我担心我们会失去它。

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Friday, March 19, 2021 -- 8:09 PM

Sex and gender are two

Sex and gender are two different things. Though we scientifically understand next to nothing about sexual orientation, we know something about gender and much more about sex. Most of us don't question our sex or gender, especially men, comfortable with their maleness and masculinity. Why should they? They are 'Real Men On Top' as Robin's forthcoming book is titled.

Here's why. There is no state or country where men outlive women. Being male kills men. Men are victims of crime at much higher rates than women as well. Men commit homicides nearly nine times as often as women. The stats go on and on.

There are biological reasons for this disparity, but social norms that don't support males through adulthood bring much pain and harm. That may seem odd to say men need support when they are the criminals and lottery winners with respect to wages and opportunity. Nevertheless, it is perhaps true. That men rarely are open and honest about their lives is further fodder for change.

The absolute best solution for the ills of masculinity is equal rights for women. Once we correct that wrong, we can genuinely share the childcare and parenting that perforce humanizes.

Women and men are more alike than they are different despite the broad differences in masculinity and femininity. Cognitively there is far more variation within the sexes than between them. SARS 2 may have reversed course on women in the workplace. Hopefully, we can right that ship. Male lives depend on it.

//www.f8r7.com/shows/what-masculinity#comment-6888

Yannipowers's picture

Yannipowers

Friday, March 26, 2021 -- 12:26 PM

You must first define what ".

You must first define what "...a man" is before you can define what it is that "makes" one. In our day and age it cannot be assumed that the individual recieving ur query has a true definition of what a man is.. Many feel that there is more to a man than just having a penis/fallace. Then there are those who believe that identifying male from female is as simple as that; what are its genitalia/body parts?
This may sound like oversimplification, and it is in part; but if u consider the fact that we, as human beings, regularly look at othe species/life forms as male or female based on the "gear/junk" they physically have, then it stands to reason that a base definition for what a man is or isnt could readily be identified by what "equipment" the body is carrying.

Yannipowers's picture

Yannipowers

Friday, March 26, 2021 -- 12:29 PM

You must first define what ".

You must first define what "...a man" is before you can define what it is that "makes" one. In our day and age it cannot be assumed that the individual recieving ur query has a true definition of what a man is.. Many feel that there is more to a man than just having a penis/fallace. Then there are those who believe that identifying male from female is as simple as that; what are its genitalia/body parts?
This may sound like oversimplification, and it is in part; but if u consider the fact that we, as human beings, regularly look at othe species/life forms as male or female based on the "gear/junk" they physically have, then it stands to reason that a base definition for what a man is or isnt could readily be identified by what "equipment" the body is carrying.

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Saturday, March 27, 2021 -- 7:31 AM

Yanni,

Yanni,

我同意你的前提,明确定义“人”会有帮助。这可能并不总是可能的,也不需要讨论男子气概。

Your concluding idea is no oversimplification it is false. People don't regularly look at genitalia... full stop. If they did that too might help.

人们经常做的事很少合乎情理。哲学很少会被过度简化——但这里有一个例外。“不要以貌取人。”

祝你好运,燕妮。

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Friday, March 26, 2021 -- 8:23 PM

Complete androgen

Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) and 5-alpha reductase 2 deficiency give me pause to accept Robin’s views toward masculinity. These can manifest in gonadal male youth being raised as girls until puberty, when their intersex is discovered. Any view of masculinity must include these males and protect their freedom, childhood, and bodies. This would entail a philosophical commitment to careful, cautious, and enlightened nurturing of all children through puberty and adulthood. Protecting youth is where masculinity philosophers need to focus their thought.

Parenting is a counterexample to the complementarity argument for using masculinity for its explanatory sake. Sensuality, pleasure, and friendship are other examples. Humans have standard biology, purpose, and meaning in life that far outweighs their gender differences.

It is incumbent on philosophers of gender to push back on feminist psychology that has co-opted gender to talk to female issues, values and emancipation. This is not pleasant work or popular. It is a foundation of the masculine view whether Dembroff agrees with it or not. They should speak to it. Philosophy needs a broader perspective than expressed by Robin here.

The history of gender, surgical reconstruction, and power are morally questionable. Dembroff needs to call these out more clearly (I hear them, but it has to be a primary and fundamental tenet) if they want to speak to utilitarian masculinity. The problem of women’s bodies is, to a large extent, masculine.

Overall I’m impressed with Robin’s theses and look forward to reading and reacting to this book. Sex, gender, sexual orientation, behavior, and sensuality are crucial to a happy life. It’s hard to be critical when this book is forthcoming, and I didn’t attend the show. This show didn’t go where I thought it would, and now I’m sorry not to have written in questions for Dr. Dembroff.

Cross post with show -//www.f8r7.com/shows/what-masculinity#comment-6906

Ray Briggs's picture

Ray Briggs

Tuesday, March 30, 2021 -- 1:20 PM

Thanks for all your

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments, Tim. You bring up a really important point about intersex rights, and one that I wish I'd talked about more explicitly on the show. Medicine has a history of mistreating intersex children by imposing medically unnecessary surgery to make their genitals appear "normal", and by encouraging their parents to keep facts about their bodies secret. I agree with you about the importance of protecting the freedom, childhood, and bodies of intersex children.

One small point about CAIS: many adults with this condition don't consider themselves men, and might dispute the claim that they have masculinity to be nurtured. (I'd expect this to be more common among people with complete rather than partial AIS, since they experience fewer "masculinizing" effects of testosterone. Here's a short personal essay by a woman with CAIS:
https://interactadvocates.org/accepting-myself-as-an-intersex-woman/

I definitely want to co-sign your point that "Humans have standard biology, purpose, and meaning in life that far outweighs their gender differences."

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Tuesday, March 30, 2021 -- 11:03 PM

Ray,

Ray,

I just want to say what huge impact your work on Philosophy Talk has made on the show. Josh has brought literature to the think space. You have brought engagement and perspective Ken or John could never achieve. I notice this in your interaction with guests and readers.

Thanks for the link. These two genetic conditions CAIS and 5AR2 deficiency are interesting cases where males for the most part (ie there are anomalies) go feminine (CAIS) and masculine (5AR2). This points to clear biological causes for gender difference in these cases. Dembroff presents masculinity as a choice or so it seemed to me. I will have to read their book. As Jackie points out - there is little choice. These are male humans (and I might add parents) coming to grips with gender in a very hard way. That hard way was what I was missing in Robin's view.

When this book comes out maybe we can revisit this show.

I am reading 'The Riddle of Gender' by Deborah Radacille, thinking hard about these last few shows and moving on. But here is my uneducated take.

Gender is not what people think it is. This is especially true of fourth-wave feminists. We are doing a disservice to our kids by hugging our binormative culture more tightly than the unique beings that are our children. I long for a world where Jackie Green's puberty is not halted. I support her happiness - full stop. The idea that sex change can bring happiness, in a still predominantly masculine culture is dangerous. I see cultural precedent for celebrating intersexuality. I doubt that will be our culture any time soon. I don't know. It ain't easy being green.

Don't get me started on parenting.

谢谢你的博客和节目。它让我思考。

Yannipowers's picture

Yannipowers

Saturday, March 27, 2021 -- 11:30 AM

I would imagine that a person

我可以想象,像海伦·凯勒这样的人,或者那些天生患有“耳聋”综合征的人,不仅能够识别/了解他们同伴的本性,而且能够了解他们自己的本性。没有能够看到或听到,他们必须了解一个人是什么,如果不是,他们如何能够区分自己和别人的能力/男子气概?
They obviously do come to a "base" definition of male/female, how else would they know what they are physically capable of? That "base" definition must and can only be established by defining parts of the body. Since they cannot see the gestures of male or female, which in todays society often "define" to individuals gender (such as walk style), nor can they hear the bias opinion of what "makes" a man differ from woman, they must solely rely on tacktile information and must therefore judge/conclude through touching of the body part/cover of humans/books of what a man or woman is. This is, as i stated at the outset, the "base" of understanding that, i believe, we as humans must first agree upon before we can try and understand "what" makes/defines the book/man (i.e., book contents).

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Tuesday, March 30, 2021 -- 6:41 PM

That there is an essence of

在文化体验之外,还有一种男人/男子气概的本质。我不知道。一般来说,男性胎儿在妊娠期会受到大量激素的影响。也许这种曝光造就了/定义了这个人/这本书。也许它来自DNA和生活经验,与文化影响无关。

在没有视觉经验或听觉输入的情况下长大的人……我真的不太了解。像海伦·凯勒这样的人对男子气概的感受。我也不知道。我不确定它们是否相同,或者是否有更基本的相似之处。除了触觉,嗅觉是另一种似乎很重要的感官。男性气质似乎有其特征和现象学。

It's also possible there is no masculinity outside culture. This, also, is worth thinking about.