What Would Kant Do?

Sunday, April 17, 2022

What Is It

German idealist and moral philosopher Immanuel Kant is probably best known for his "Categorical Imperative," which says that you should act following moral rules you could rationally support as universal law. In other words, do only what you would have everyone else do. But are Kant's rules really a good guide to action? Does he have anything to say about things people confront in everyday life, like friendship, manners, or gossip? Is Kant overly optimistic about our capacity to use reason and choose freely? Or was he right that rationality is the key to moral progress? Josh and Ray do right by Karen Stohr from Georgetown University, author ofChoosing Freedom: A Kantian Guide to Life.

Listening Notes

你能通过推理成为一个好人吗?道德应该对每个人都一样吗?乔希开始思考同理心在康德强调理性中的位置,雷解释说情绪经常会把我们引入歧途。乔什通过质疑理性的准确性,以及康德的绝对命令——永远不要把人作为达到目的的手段——来反击。雷考虑了个人和普遍的伦理价值观,他们提出自由可以来自道德规则。

The philosophers are joined by Karen Stohr, Professor of Philosophy at Georgetown University, who appreciates Kant because of his commitment to believing that humans have the potential to improve despite being ethical messes. Ray asks why Kant is so intent on the power of reason, prompting Karen to explain how it was characteristic of Enlightenment scholars to place a tremendous amount of faith in reason. Josh considers specific formulations of the Categorical Imperative, like what Kant means when he says that we should act as if we live in a kingdom of ends. Ray is skeptical about Kant’s ability to accommodate the non-ideal reality of human beings, but Karen is optimistic that his theories have room for imperfection.

在节目的最后一部分,Josh, Ray和Karen讨论了同情在康德伦理学中的位置,晚宴的道德重要性,以及康德在当今社会的应用。凯伦认为康德会被社交媒体和人们对彼此的蔑视所困扰。雷提出了如何对待刚刚做了坏事的人的问题,凯伦建议让人们为他们的行为负责,同时尊重他们。乔什想知道社区在成为一个更好的人的重要性,凯伦建议听众找到并加入世界的帮手。

  • Roving Philosophical Report (Seek to 4:33) →Sarah Lai Stirland speaks to a group of Kant scholars about their response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

  • Sixty-Second Philosopher (Seek to 45:31) →Ian Shoales considers if Kant knew he was part of the Enlightenment while it was happening.

Transcript

Transcript

Josh Landy
你能通过推理成为一个好人吗?

Ray Briggs
还是你的感觉能更好地引导你做正确的事?

Josh Landy
道德应该对每个人都一样吗?

Comments(27)


Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Thursday, February 17, 2022 -- 10:38 PM

Compassion and pragmatism

Compassion and pragmatism make a cleaner path in life than the categorical imperative. Much of the validity of Kant plays out his faulty premises. Who in their right mind would tell a mother on her death bed that their child was in harm's way. I look forward to hearing this out. Kant seems to be the latest fad. I don't think he is helpful in the vast majority of life's decisions.

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Harold G. Neuman

Friday, February 25, 2022 -- 8:04 AM

我认为史密斯是对的。I

我认为史密斯是对的。我始终无法理解康德先生的哲学。,绝对命令,尽管。提醒一句:当某人断然否认某事时,寻找谎言。如果他或她说的某件事绝对是假的,那可能是真的,但无论如何要寻找谎言。在最好的时代和最好的环境下,做一个道德哲学家是有风险的。
If it were possible to speak seriously of morality, there would be things that ought to hold, under the worst of circumstances. But, many times, they don't. And this is why it is not possible. Further, affiant sayeth not.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Saturday, March 26, 2022 -- 9:34 PM

"Further, affiant sayeth not.

“再说,信徒也不会说。”这奇怪的语言是什么意思?奇怪的文字。

When someone categorically denies something, it means confusion reigns. It means they are good at cards, and like to live alone and take walks. But Kant was right about never treating someone as means merely. All we do these days is treat one another as means, as things to make us feel good, deliver us food, and drive us around.

康德说:“永远不要只把人当作手段,而要永远把人当作目的。”他可能有点神经质,但在这一点上他是对的……

Plus he was good at cards...

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Sunday, March 27, 2022 -- 6:38 PM

Never treat someone as a

永远不要把某人当作手段,除非那意味着生孩子。康德是复杂的,他在那些本不应该逃避他思想的基本问题上大错特错。为什么会这样呢?我会等着卡伦•斯托尔(Karen Stohr)来签到,但理性不是道德进步的基础。

Further affiant sayeth not... as they say. ;-)

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Thursday, March 31, 2022 -- 5:09 AM

Summary judgement, being an

即决判断表明了已决定的意见,也表明了这种果断的明确理由。在这些哲学家“大错特错”的“本质问题”上,你的观点是什么?你可能会提到A291的《实践理性批判》,其中提出了一些建议,期望通过使用他的方法,有一天会出现道德科学中的牛顿?你上面最后一句的意思可能是什么?你是说只有不理性的人才有道德,因此你可以把自己算在其中吗?

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Friday, April 1, 2022 -- 2:27 AM

There is no science to

There is no science to morality. All people are irrational sometimes. Immorality is anothers morality. There is no rational take that rises above the specifics of a moral quandry. Detail and identity determine most moral positions.

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Friday, April 1, 2022 -- 1:58 PM

Without having to determine

不需要确定为什么会这样,我的第二个问题的答案显然是由一个坚决的肯定发出的。把你自己纳入偶尔非理性的群体和完全自主道德的群体,你就能逃脱道德相对论者所特有的不道德指责;——辩护的理由是,任何外部强加给他人的道德标准,本身就是与最初被认为是道德的东西相矛盾的。关于康德我想说两点。首先,在经验上,总是有一些标准被她/他所属的群体强加在个人身上。例如,如果四名水手在一艘救生艇上漂流,每人的饮食要求相当,他们中间有六份Slim Jim’s,其中一人要求多吃两份Slim Jim’s,这样她/他就吃了三份,而其他人只吃了一份,这是不道德的。然而,如果一个水手实际上需要额外的两个才能活下来,而其他人只需要一个,那么对这个要求做出让步会被全体船员理解为道德的。康德需要一种方式来谈论道德独立于经验考虑的问题,这正是你所提出的原因:如果找不到任何理由,那么道德标准只不过是用普遍语言包装起来的品味和权宜之计。此外,他需要保留重要的直觉,你的反应表明,没有人能告诉你道德应该是什么。他必须保持判断的根本个性——在任何精心设计的普遍代理基础上的独立性。 This I think he does by the notion of Duty as something good in itself, independent of anything which might result from its performance. And of course the Categorical Imperative, for which Kant provides four or five roughly compatible formulations, furnishes the standard which determines its concept.

Although it's always a pleasure to inquire into the distinction between varieties of empirical moralities, (e.g. consequentialism, utilitarianism, hedonism, solipsism, et al.), and Kant's supposed "deontology", I was more interested in what an answer to my first question might be. Your phrases "essential matters" and "dead wrong" immediately brought to mind a rather astounding statement written in the Critique of Practical Reason at A291 with regards to the systematic performance of duty for duty's sake. After waxing enthusiastic about the progress in the physics of his day, he writes that on the strength of that example there obtains "hope for a similarly good result" (Hoffnung zu aehnlichem guten Erfolg), in the study, to wit the "science", of morals. If "dead wrong" applies to anything in Kant, this suggestion arguably qualifies. So could this be your reference for such a decisive condemnation? If not, then is disclosure of its reference to much for a colleague to ask? To keep your readers in suspense any longer could tempt transgression of the scholar's imprimatur, lessening what's becoming of an untamed and insightful talent. What are these "essential matters"?

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Friday, April 1, 2022 -- 7:42 PM

Let me wait for Karen Stohr

Let me wait for Karen Stohr to check this. I hope some of this makes the show.

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Tim Smith

Thursday, April 14, 2022 -- 9:41 AM

The show was well executed

The show was well executed and helpful as well as addressing your points and questions above, don't you think? Kant could have saved us a few hundred years had he applied his model to his own thought and time.

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Thursday, April 7, 2022 -- 11:06 AM

Oh, those moral positions..

Oh, those moral positions...sigh...

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tartarthistle

Monday, March 28, 2022 -- 9:07 PM

Further affiant as they not

Further affiant as they not say ! Further not say! Say, affiant, what thee meaneth by they strangeth words?

Kant was odd. Math and too much thinking--when not balanced by children, family members, neighbors, and coworkers--leads to 700 pages of pure reason. Tolstoy was much better. He jazzed his reason up with some racy tidbits, science, plus a little Freemasonry for added mystery. I like that. Tolstoy had style. Talk about walking away from things...Just getting on a train and leaving...Poof, down...

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Thursday, March 31, 2022 -- 5:26 AM

O.K., so Kant was an uptight

O.K., so Kant was an uptight constitutional monarchist and Tolstoy a century later was a free-love anarchist. Is this the basis of the comparison? Are there discernible philosophical points on which they might be compared as well?

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tartarthistle

Friday, April 1, 2022 -- 11:39 AM

Well, probably not. Tolstoy

Well, probably not. Tolstoy liked to, hmm, shall we say, procreate at the level of children. And Kant enjoyed procreating at level of, shall we say, "Further affiant sayeth not," plus 1030 pages of reason (including end-matter). I really find Kant's distinction between analytic and synthetic judgments helpful. And quite frankly (although I anticipate a grunchy response), I think this distinction corresponds to one made by Tolstoy at the end of War and Peace, where he points out, with respect to power, how people always "arrive at such relations among themselves that the largest number of people take the largest direct part and the smallest number of people the smallest direct part in the joint action for which they have come together." (p. 1196, Richard Pevear trans.) The smallest number corresponds to society's elite analytic class (granddads and grandmums), and the largest part to society's workers (all the little kiddies). It also has a mathematical aspect with respect to time (elders, elites, small part-mind, and youth, non-elite many, larger part-body). Analytic truths (the elders who guide things) and synthetic truths (the youngsters who do the things). Between the one and the other is the trouble-maker class, the raucous satyr chorus and their their sweet-singing mermaid friends. The satyrs and the mermaids are so much fun when they get together. Weeee!

I'll bet Kant and Tolstoy would have very little to say to one another...That would be a very silent table...All beards and egos...

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Friday, April 1, 2022 -- 2:53 PM

Is that because Kant's

这是因为康德的方法是分析的,没有超越不参考特定经验的理性所能提供的东西,而托尔斯泰的方法是综合的,允许特定的历史经验填补行为的理性基础和有意行动的意外后果之间的空白吗?

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Saturday, April 2, 2022 -- 7:33 PM

It's because Kant is Kant,

因为康德就是康德,托尔斯泰就是托尔斯泰,愚蠢就是愚蠢……

And I'm not a robot...

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Sunday, April 3, 2022 -- 5:26 AM

At least you know what you

At least you know what you are not.

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Sunday, April 3, 2022 -- 10:33 AM

--On the common definition of

--On the common definition of "robot", I suppose that's a safe assumption, although there's really no way to prove it. Presumably one could be pre-determined or "programmed" for childish vulgarity as well as for things like playing chess. But independent from claims of non-robotic self-identity my interest in your remarks concerns Kant's renown analytic/synthetic distinction, which is in fact three distinctions: analytic and synthetic judgments (e.g. all bodies are extended and all bodies are heavy), analytic and synthetic concepts (e.g. bodies in space and heavy bodies) and analytic and synthetic methods (e.g. logic and mathematics). You've offered three arguments above, the first two of which are analytically true by a relation of quantitative identity, but, as concerning complex persons, are not tautological. What I mean is that the claim that "Socrates is Socrates" is similar in form to the statement that "boys will be boys". The second term picks out certain properties tacitly contained in the first, emphasizing them as especially significant. The statement remains analytic without being uninformative. Take Gertrude Stein's famous statement that "a rose is a rose is a rose". The third clause is clearly a phenomenology of the second drawn out from the first, but is not synthetic.

Your third argument however is to my mind where the action is. Here we're dealing with the identity of a predicate-universal with itself, which is hermeneutically disjunctive: Either "silliness = silliness", which is unproblematic, or "it's silly to be silly" which is a self-abnegation of the predicate by the identity relation precisely to indicate its opposite. How such a statement can be semiologically intelligible and nevertheless appear to violate the law of contradiction appears to this day to elude logical analysis.. In spite of its terse brevity, then, your third analytic argument above may portend a revolution in the laws of logic.

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Monday, April 4, 2022 -- 8:43 AM

No thanks. You mention

No thanks. You mention however in the third sentence above the phenomenon of a lie being told to one's self. How does that work? Kant in the Foundations puts a lot of emphasis on the example of not lying as instantiating the Categorical Imperative in a way which serves to illustrate its universalizing function. Do you think it works just as well when the lie is told to one's self?

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Tuesday, April 5, 2022 -- 9:18 PM

I am super surprised the

I am super surprised the other words haven't vanished into thin air. Poof, gone!

我一直在欺骗自己。不是每个人?你怎么称呼语言用法?

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Wednesday, April 6, 2022 -- 8:26 AM

The use of language is called

The use of language is called what it's called by the use of language, and thus contains a problem of self-reference similar to the use of pictures for the purpose of describing a visible object which exists. You haven't answered my question, though. With regards to a lie which one tells one's self, I didn't ask you whether or not you do it, I asked how it's done. Presumably, when you lie to yourself, you know you're lying. The lie proceeds without ever becoming established as successful. The question for Kant is of course contained in your second sentence from the end above: Could anyone consistently will self-lying to be a universal law in any given case of its performance? That seems to me highly untenable, as "telling the truth" to one's self seems a fundamental tenet with regards to the use of the categorical imperative as a law which the understanding of one's own freedom is supposed to give to itself. Your theory that the use of language equates to self-lying is therefore highly spurious if with it you're trying to critically approach Kant's ethical position. Such a recommendation is subject to the same objection as lying to another, or "successful lying": The institution of trust and promising would be undermined, to the point where human existence would become unsustainable. In the self-lying variant which you suggest, the ability to trust one's self would be similarly eroded, to the point where one could no longer conceive of any long term plans. It's the ability to make a promise to one's self which your suggestion would undermine, and could conceivably be an explanatory factor in some of the undesirable situations previously expressed by the self-liar in this case, which might otherwise have been avoidable.

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tartarthistle

Thursday, April 7, 2022 -- 6:47 AM

我该如何欺骗自己?Hmm..

我该如何欺骗自己?嗯…我闭上眼睛,想象着可能存在也可能不存在的事物。我在脑海中看到事物。我有丰富而细致的想象力。(我点上香,啜一口,放音乐。)我可以在这个空间里创造各种各样的东西。我可以在想象中忘乎所以。我可以想象各种各样的可能性。美好的事物,美好的人,美好的环境,让我欲火焚身。 I get excited...
我还需要继续吗?

Is this not what you meant?

我可以让自己亢奋,也可以让自己消沉。

I enjoy lying to myself. It's actually rather pleasant. It takes the edge off.

但奇怪的是,我不会故意对别人撒谎。这不能让我兴奋。我马上承认。我讨厌虚伪。我不得不把真相告诉别人。

But I love lying to myself....I love lying with myself. I do it all the time. It's fun. Try it. It takes the edge off. Poof, gone!

P.S. My physical senses also lie to me, so I suppose in that sense I lie to myself constantly. I'm lying to myself right now. Ah!

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Friday, April 8, 2022 -- 12:53 PM

The typical definition of a

The typical definition of a lie is deliberate semiological transmission of a false correspondence, which you take note of in the third line from the end.
虽然很明显,很多人都试图把自己的谎言传递给自己,但我的问题是基于这样的观察:这种尝试一定程度上总是失败的,因为说谎者知道自己在撒谎。你在这里提出的回应涉及到对自己撒谎的主张,即对想象的产物给予特别的关注,并强调每一种:生产性的想象,在上面的第一段中处理,以及生殖性的想象,在后记中描述(参见《纯粹理性批判》,A120)。然而,尚不清楚这如何等同于故意撒谎。就像魔术师为自己表演魔术一样,他/她可能会对结果感到满意,但不会撒谎,因为他/她知道是怎么做到的。但是这里关于康德伦理理论的问题可以被认为是你所描述的行为是否由义务驱动而不考虑其后果。虽然这个问题的答案看起来是否定的,但康德在《基础》(BA 12)中写道,享受自我是一种“间接责任”,因为它提供了更好的条件来防范违反义务要求的诱惑。然而,有意地使用想象力的能力,在享受它的产品中,等同于欺骗自己的行为,这逃避了康德对这种动机根据可能的责任的有力禁止,在我看来,这是完全被拒绝的。

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tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Friday, April 8, 2022 -- 9:53 PM

Who was Dostoyevsky's Grand

陀思妥耶夫斯基的大审判官在对谁撒谎?他自己,基督,还是人民?基督只是微笑,亲吻他,然后离开。

Who was telling the truth and who was lying?

The meaning is very unclear...life is very unclear...I'm kind of fine with that...I'm just flying at the intersection of Page and Octavia, "Spare some change. Just trying to get by."

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Saturday, April 9, 2022 -- 7:43 AM

Kant was not only trying to

Kant was not only trying to get by; instead, he was trying to build a system of morality and ethics. Peace be with you, Tartarthistle, but here we talk about Kant. I would compare Kant's system of ethics to that portrayed in Russian literature, and I'm not sure how closely that would get to Kant's ideas.

I did read Karen's book, however, and it is an excellent summary of Kant, and even some of the issues Daniel and you are touching upon here. I will encourage you to read it if you haven't. The show will be enlightening and maybe fun even, as I have already mollified my take on Kant in light of this learning.

Still, I would wait to hear from Stohr before saying much more.

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Tuesday, April 12, 2022 -- 3:34 PM

Although Kant talks about

虽然康德说在道德行为中获得快乐是允许的,但只要它不构成行为的原始动机基础,人们就会普遍感兴趣为这种感觉的发生创造条件,因为这些会增加履行义务的可能性。因此,对顺从责任的乐趣的兴趣本身就是一种责任。但是,如果对“做了正确的事”所带来的快乐感的兴趣也是一种义务,那么就必然存在一种伴随的义务,即以某种形式拒绝阻碍其满足的东西。My question, then, is this: Is there by Kant's argument a duty of disgust;
not disgust in the observation another's immoral action, which is unproblematic, but disgust in what impedes satisfaction of the general interest of furnishing conditions for post-hoc duty-conformity pleasure? If so, a pleasure in disgust must be admitted as implied by moral feeling; and therefore a practical Kantian aesthetics of the disgusting arguably precedes his later aesthetic theory of subjective universality of non-conceptual cognitive form.

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Wednesday, April 13, 2022 -- 8:15 AM

Kant is not well thought out

Kant is not well thought out on this. Pleasure vs. virtue in ethics is a mid 19th century event. Epicurean ideas and Kant don't mix in my understanding. Did you read 'Choosing Freedom'?, I found it helpful as most of my reading of Kant was decades old. I got a bit off track then with terms. This, your idea here, is too late for the show to respond but I think we should respect Kant's place in history even as we disrespect his lack of woke. Pleasure is not his schtick.

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Wednesday, April 13, 2022 -- 2:50 PM

Firm agreement here it's not

我很确定这不是他的把戏。对康德来说,快乐不是推销他的哲学的一种方式,而是他职业工作中显著而持久的兴趣。以第二批判(A204/205)中介绍的实践理性的二律背反为例。在本书的第一部分确定了常识道德的理性基础后,康德声称已经证明,由于美德不能与快乐等同(因此责任也不能与快乐等同),它必须被正确地描述为值得快乐(因此也值得快乐)。康德认为,对个人而言,“最高的善”是将两者结合在一起,从而确定了一个由两部分组成的概念:一部分是基于作为行为价值的义务(美德),另一部分是指作为理想结果或具体关联的快乐或一种特殊的快乐(幸福)。

Clearly, then, the topic of pleasure is central in Kant's non-peripheral discussion here. But the next step in his argument is notable, and directly relates to your second sentence above: How are these two parts of the concept related? In the ancient world the Epicurean view, according to Kant, was to identify virtue as whatever leads to happiness, and duty therefore as whatever leads to pleasure, (at least the kind of pleasure which is generated by doing one's duty). The Stoics on the other hand saw virtue as happiness itself. Duty as its own reward doesn't need any further pleasure which completes it beyond its own performance. Without going into the details of the Antinomy itself (which has the Stoics coming out on top with the reservation that their position is only true on condition that the pleasure of duty isn't part of the motive for doing it, but at most an accidental result-- A206/207), I think it's clear how fundamental pleasure is, described as an essential component of the highest good for an individual, in Kant's moral theory. My question for the proponent of this theory, however, is: How are the motive grounds of duty independent from the anticipated subjective effect of doing it? Here I would agree with your first sentence above: His detectable answer to that question remains singularly unconvincing.

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