When people think of memes, they think first of the Internet and new expressions or viral happenings like Gangnam style, emojis, or planking – that is not exactly what is at stake in this show. Rather, John and Ken want to discuss a serious scientific hypothesis about the evolution of human culture. John suggests that memes are to cultural evolution what genes are to biological evolution. So all that genes want, according to the selfish gene hypothesis, is to replicate themselves by undergoing a competitive selection process. Memes are self-replicating too and provide instructions for building beliefs and emotions in our brains. But ideas don’t make actual physical copies of themselves like genes do, says Ken. The mechanism is different, yes, but how is that problematic? Ken says that while his ideas might influence John’s, they can never be transferred. But, John argues, Ken just did! It’s just like how culture or language or religion is passed on generation through generation. But Ken pushes back: ideas don’t literally replicate themselves in our brain. Why not, asks John? Ken insists that we actively choose which ideas to accept and which to reject, and the duo explores the selfishmemehypothesis.

John and Ken welcome guest Susan Blackmore, a freelance writer, lecturer and broadcaster, and a Visiting Professor at the University of Plymouth, as well as author ofThe Meme Machine. Susan explains that her fascination with memes started when she read Daniel Dennett’s book,Darwin'sDangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life，这让她重读了《自私的基因》。John问什么是模因，Susan解释说它是通过变异和选择复制的信息;她坚持理查德·道金斯定义这一概念的原始方式，并补充说，我们整天被具有巨大选择压力的表情包轰炸。肯问苏珊关于科学思想传播和宗教思想传播之间的区别。苏珊解释说，模因实际上是我们大脑中的信息，我们通过讲故事、唱歌和其他活动来复制这些信息。那么，为什么有些表情包会传播，有些则不会呢?我们可以认为一些传播是因为它们是真实的，或者一些传播是因为它们是病毒，它们欺骗我们的大脑，尽管它们不是真实的或有用的。宗教接近后者，科学接近前者。不同的是，科学家们收集了很多表情包来做统计。宗教也有传递和复制的过程，但它们充满了让我们相信被告知的东西的肮脏伎俩。 The concept of religion as being passed on as meme is further discussed in the show with reference to the spiritual side of the meme machine and the alaya plane of habit in Buddhism.

John asks Susan what the word ‘meme’ adds to our already existing concept of ‘idea.’ Susan replies that not all memes are ideas, and not all ideas are memes. She brings up the concept of the memes-eye view, and Ken expresses that people have an interest in having ideas that are true – the ideas themselves do not have an interest. Susan further explains the memetic concept of the self, and talks with John about selves versus self-concepts. John, Ken, and Paul welcome questions from the audience and talk about universal Darwinism and meme theory.

• Roving Philosophical Report(Seek to 6:30): Caitlin Esch explores why certain ideas spread so widely and what makes an idea like planking catch on.
• 60-Second Philosopher(Seek to 49:36): Ian Shoales spreads ideas faster than a meme in his speedy speech on cultural propagation and the viral memes we all know and love.