Disinformation and the Future of Democracy

Sunday, May 9, 2021

What Is It

2020年美国大选以及随后发生的惊人事件表明,美国的两极分化一如既往。不仅在价值观和目标上存在根本分歧,而且人们似乎无法就最基本、最容易验证的事实达成一致,比如谁真正赢了。如此多的人似乎生活在另一个现实中,我们如何继续共同的民主事业?我们应该对那些与真理严重脱节的同胞采取家长式的政策吗?我们目前的困境是否表明自由民主计划正在失败?Ray and guest co-host (emeritus) John Perry stay informed about their guest, attorney and political analyst Dean Johnson, co-host of KALW'sYour Legal Rights.

Listening Notes

在一个充满虚假信息的世界里,任何人都能做出明智的政治决定吗?如果我们连真相都不能达成一致,我们怎么能团结成一个国家?约翰认为民主是没有希望的,除非我们更好地打击虚假信息,但雷抗议说,言论自由不能通过让人们噤声而被剥夺。约翰回应说,人们应该更加小心事实核查文章,确保信息来源是可信的,但雷认为,不是每个人都接受过哲学教育或具备做出这些决定的教育条件。

哲学家们欢迎政治分析人士兼刑事辩护律师迪恩·约翰逊(Dean Johnson)来到节目中。雷要求了解目前令人特别担忧的虚假信息来源,对此,迪安描述了宣传的深度和广度如何使它比过去更令人担忧。此外,虚假信息通过社交媒体和越来越多的新技术传播。约翰想知道这种新的宣传形式是否会使它对民主构成更大的威胁,迪恩解释说,这种危险来自于信息消费频率的增加。人们不仅消费更多的虚假信息,而且他们对事实的解释也受到现有意识形态的影响。

在节目的最后一部分,约翰、雷和迪恩讨论了确认偏见以及私营部门在民主中的地位。雷提出了作为新闻消费者的个人责任与将虚假信息视为结构性问题的区别,约翰提出了作为个人做出改变的方法,比如通过对我们的朋友进行事实核查。他认为,当真理遭到破坏时,提供可证明的事实是最有力的辩护。

  • Roving Philosophical Report (Seek to 4:25) →Holly J. McDede looks at the effects of a controversial website that filled the news and information void in Stockton, California.
  • Sixty-Second Philosopher (Seek to 45:25) →Ian Shoales looks at the end of the Trump era, wokeness, and conservatism.

Transcript

Transcript

Ray Briggs
在一个充满虚假信息的世界里,任何人都能做出明智的政治决定吗?

John Perry
反疫苗者、Q-Anon的信徒、911真相者——美国能有多脱离现实?

Comments(17)


Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Saturday, March 6, 2021 -- 12:31 PM

真理衰变。聪明。

真理衰变。聪明。替代现实?这和分离现实是一回事吗?在我看来,我们从根本上背离了民主政府和支撑这一理念的原则。
没完没了的争吵已经把这个共和国侵蚀得面目全非了。在我看来,这一切中最令人不安的方面是我们的立法者对其行为后果的漠视。
They appear not to care, so long as they can prevail. We the people do not know what to make of it.
If there is no improvement, sadly, our democracy is finished. Rome, it is said, was not built in a day.
It did not fall in a day either. The parallels are telling.

Daniel's picture

Daniel

Friday, March 26, 2021 -- 4:30 PM

So where does that leave the

那么,卢比孔河的跨越是什么意思呢?凯撒自己也不想要。他的将军们。他没有带领军队过河;他被推。我们可能会在最近几位国家首席执行官的行为中观察到类似的情况吗?企业的力量是否在推动我们的民选代表超越民主规范?

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Saturday, April 3, 2021 -- 8:48 AM

Good questions all. I think

Good questions all. I think me unqualified to answer them. But there is something else which has been nagging at my consciousness for maybe twenty five years. I have noticed an erosion of sorts: the steady replacement of matters of substance with matters of form. I contend this is largely to blame for the increasing divisions we witness. Form is mostly about compliance with insructions, edicts, proclamations and the like. It tends to diminish substantial importance, in favor of conformity. I suspect others have seen this. We cannot all have blinders on, can we? Yes, I am a remnant of counter-cultural upheaval. I also remember more free-thinking times, when some of us had the audacity to look for what really mattered.

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Saturday, April 3, 2021 -- 2:23 PM

Move my last comments

Move my last comments anywhere you wish. Tell me what you find.

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Tuesday, April 6, 2021 -- 6:13 AM

Have had some recent email

Have had some recent email exchanges with my brother in another country. He is the only surviving blood relative whom I have contact with. We talk about how we grew up, how those,years formed our world views about things; and how different the world is now. We are mostly agreed on notions of democracy: it is just about of bullets. After shooting itself, repeatedly, in the feet. Conflicting ideologies, all espousing the heart and soul of we the people, stumble and fumble;bicker and banter, a lot like religious fanatics, pontificating the 'one true path'. Older brother and I are pretty comfortable in our own skins, so we don't,spend too much time agonizing over others who may not be as well-situated. Seems to me (and, I think to him) that the origins of democracy have been misplaced. This has been an emergent phenomenon. PACs and SPIGs (special interest groups) are partly at fault here, but their influences come not from the people-at-large. I'm pretty sure that, had those people been more attentive; more vigilant; the PACs and SPIGs would have not gained their respective followings.(please note that vigilant is not the same as vigilante---they just look alike.)

It is, of course, more complex that what has been suggested above. I can't write a book here and you would not want to read one. Key phrases are representative democracy and participatory democracy. One must have both---not just one in lieu of the other. The PT blog discusses most of the other errors that have been committed and repeated,over a comparatively short time. I think their repetitive format is intended to track those commissions (and omissions).: we are not, it appears, learning from our mistakes. Dan Dennett must be tearing his hair out. Or else, like me, it is male pattern baldness.

Daniel's picture

Daniel

Tuesday, April 6, 2021 -- 3:43 PM

Certainly representative

当然,代议制民主也是参与式的,只要代表是投票产生的。在我看来,你似乎触及了代议制和直接民主之间更基本的区别,即公元前五世纪雅典人所拥有的那种民主。然而,我目前对你的评论感兴趣的是4月3日上午8点48分发表的评论,它以“无畏地寻找重要的东西”结束。因为与之相伴的是,一旦你找到了你想要的东西,你必须大胆地表达出对什么才是真正重要的关心。因为这有时会带来报复,就像在《伊利亚特》(II.211-242,可以说是西方文学传统中第一个连续的反对者和反战活动家)早期,特赛斯反对阿伽门农的运动,遭到了奥德修斯的严厉打击(II.265-269);或者一家全国性的电视网络取消了“多纳休”脱口秀节目,因为在2003年3月入侵伊拉克之前,在众多支持战争的观点中,仅仅邀请了一个反战的声音。事实上,即使摘掉国家、教育系统、电视广告或其他无数引导大众思想远离审视社会中最强大因素的行为及其影响的方式所设置的“眼罩”,也会有其代价,有些人会这样做;在这样做的过程中,分享一个更好的信息世界的荣誉,赞扬个人的诚实和智力上的责任。

It is however the main part of your comment which to my mind carries the heaviest burden of philosophical analysis: The ancient distinction between form and substance which you apply in explanation of apparent social and political divisiveness, and goes back at least to Aristotle. For Aristotle substance (ousia) is primarily the bearer of diverse predicates which can not itself be a predicate of anything else; to wit: "this man" (e.g. Socrates); "that horse" (e.g. Bucephallus). (As a technical point, the form or "species" is itself described as a kind of "secondary" substance, since it can be seen as a particular under a larger class or "genus", but I think this can here be put aside.) The form however can also denote serviceability (cf. Metaphysics; books V-VI). An ax's form, for example, is defined primarily by its function (ergon), as one which chops wood. A cardboard ax has an ax's shape (morphe), but not its form.

考虑到这一点,我理解你提到的“实质问题”和“形式问题”是既翔实又模棱两可的:翔实的意思是“问题”=问题及其解决方案;模棱两可,因为“实质与形式”可以被视为不同种类的事项:“实质事项”表示对问题本身的观察和分析;而“形式问题”则是指在现有解决方案中预先设定的路径。因此,人们可以将这种区别解释为“对(实质性)问题的意识”(与感知和诊断有关)和“解决方案的战术形式”(与预期和预后有关);或者说,一方面是问题刺激,另一方面是解决方案形式。

因此,我理解你提到的“侵蚀”是指传统解决方案的自动化对问题知识的侵蚀;通过反应而意识到,通过反应而刺激;通过做而存在;由行动决定思想。在这一点上我完全同意。作为自由的人,所有人都要为自己行为的后果负责。但这些影响可能缺乏足够的事先考虑,因此不能被称为有意为之。我记得最近美国政府的一位首席执行官就被意外提名为该职位的人选,但他所在政党的人仍然对此负有责任。个人被迫不经思考地做出选择,被责任要求(由对她或他自身自由的无条件理解)逼入习惯的群体行为和陈旧的、过时的解决方案的狭隘范围,这些问题的复杂性远远低于我们自己的问题。

The best solution to the problem of erosion of problem-awareness by solution-reaction is therefore to retreat to the problems themselves-- to thought (attempt to understand on one's own account); and to being (accommodating one's understanding to the source of its contents).

In this relation and in deference to the forum, there might emerge from such considerations a justifiable advocacy for the Philosophy Department's return to some form of the position it obtained in earlier periods, whereby one might hear G.T.F.'s themselves beckoning to the heights of their advisors: "thallassa!", "to the sea!".

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Thursday, May 6, 2021 -- 7:55 AM

Following with amazement the

接下来是我们上一任总统和那个大型社交媒体供应商的传奇故事。我知道我不应该感到惊讶,但是,唉,我真的很惊讶。这个时代的整个片段令人失望和尴尬。但它教会我们把零视为理所当然。看来在可预见的未来,真相会随我们而去。

tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Monday, May 10, 2021 -- 10:43 AM

Hi Philosophy Talk,

Hi Philosophy Talk,

I would like to suggest your audience read Glen Greenwald’s most recent post on substack.com (5-9-21) about U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, as it directly relates to your last radio broadcast. We hear so much about fake news these days, but it’s almost always in reference to Trump and right wing institutions. Lost in the process have been the blatant attacks on press freedoms by recent Democratic administrations. Our political framing seems strictly confined to discussions about Trump’s over-the-top bad behavior, meanwhile Tartuffe-like characters on the Democratic side are given a pass. It’s easy to appear good next to someone like Trump, but often hiding behind the hair-shirt displays of piety and political correctness of many prominent Democratic politicians you find an ethically compromised, profiteering, self-serving hypocrite (Senator Feinstein comes immediately to mind).

企业民主党人的这种惊人的虚伪,以及他们所代表的精英群体,助长了工人阶级的愤怒。让我们面对现实吧,特朗普可以扮演或扮演一个优秀的领导者——他是一个出色的表演者——但他故意选择无视与社会精英有关的传统道德美德。他的行为就像一头典型的资本主义猪,让民主党的Tartuffes显得“两害相权取其轻”。但这并不是在任何事物的程度或大或小之间的选择,而是在两个不同的、相反的想法之间的选择:善的想法(以塔尔图夫(Tartuffes)为代表)和恶的想法(以特朗普等滑稽的沙文主义人物为代表)。换句话说,我们的两党制使政治选举沦为荒谬的公众诉求;一种面向多数人或暴民(特朗普愤世嫉俗的右翼“民粹主义”),另一种面向少数人或社会精英(企业专业阶层,在新冠危机期间,他们实际上一直在积极地从社会混乱的条件中获益,即必要的政治指导或领导的缺失)。

By going out of his way to appear ignorant, brutish, and greedy by openly embracing negative stereotypes associated with working-class men of all colors, Trump appeals to those who identify themselves as commoners, our nations largest part. (Think Golden Ratio here; the whole is to the largest part, as the largest part is to the smallest.) This game being played is a mathematical one; divide the American working-class neatly in two, in order to control the whole country. The American working-class, our country’s largest part, is probably the most politically impotent demographic on earth right now (their trucks get bigger as their power diminishes, it’s so pathetic one wants to weep). As the 2014 study by Martin Gilens, a professor of politics at Princeton University, and Benjamin I. Page, a professor at Northwestern University, found, the preferences of average citizens have very little to no effect on policy-making. This is because Americans strangely permit their social elite to accumulate massive amounts of wealth, while simultaneously and irrationally still claiming to represent the interest of society as a whole.

在我们的特朗普与塔尔图夫(Tartuffe)的选举中,两个截然不同的社会阶层的利益同时受到了吸引,多数和少数。一名候选人实际上是一位绅士,但却表现出或假装是平民,另一名是平民,表现出或假装是绅士。我们只被允许看到好的和坏的,而不是不完美的——既不是好的也不是坏的,而是存在于两者之间的一种方式。再想想毕达哥拉斯的黄金比例,再想想苏格拉底是如何描述哲学家的理性和本性的,既不好也不坏,而是介于两者之间。

在我们的两党“两害相权取其轻”的政治制度中,我们所失去的是这样一个事实:不完美和坏或邪恶是截然不同的两件事。一个是物理的东西,另一个是思想的“东西”,一个完整的整体。在“好”的塔尔图夫和“坏”的特朗普之间进行选举选择,根本不是在两个实体——两个活生生的人——之间进行选择,而是在两个观念之间进行选择。但是,我们国家最大的一部分工人阶级是由普通人组成的,他们认为自己既不好也不坏,只是不完美。鉴于我们目前的社会危机状况,我们应该明智地回忆,往往是那些看起来最不完美的人,最终却被证明是最值得信赖和善良的,而恰恰是那些看起来完美的人,我们后来发现他们在私人生活中从事难以形容的犯罪和虐待行为。专业的诡辩家和真正的哲学家都很清楚,表象是会骗人的。

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Tuesday, May 11, 2021 -- 10:30 PM

Tartarthistle,

Tartarthistle,

诡辩在这里不受欢迎。找一个论点,然后说出来。

That Glen Greenwald thinks Julian Assange is worthy of a Nobel prize is neither newsworthy, legally accurate, nor philosophically sound. How does Greenwald’s essay relate to this broadcast? How exactly? It does not.

Both Biden and Trump supported extradition (granted Trump toyed with pardoning Assange – which neither Blinken nor Biden would ever consider – but even Trump did not stoop so low.) If that is disinformation, then it is equally shared by both administrations and Barack Obama’s to boot. If that is disinformation, at least our Democracy is not threatened by its spread.

格林沃尔德从阿桑奇身上获利,这也是他在那篇文章中称赞他的原因。是什么给您带来了利润呢?不需要用手指。就在这里做。采取一种哲学立场——仅此而已。

PT is not Sophistry Talks; instead, it is Philosophy Talks. Philosophy as a whole is non-partisan. It is the discussion of the common grounds of grounds themselves. You seem to want to equate Trump with Biden. Not only that, you call all Democrats Tartuffe-like. It is hyperbole. Equating the extreme disinformation of Donald Trump compared to that of Joe Biden or any other Democrat is disingenuous and outright deception. Drop the sophistry, and your post withers.

You say Trump appeals to the mob while Biden appeals to the social elite, who you then call out as profiting from the pandemic. You, full stop, are Tartuffe, of a prickly Russian sort – Tartarthistle. Stop aggrandizing Trump by comparing his tactic to the Golden Ratio (what does that even mean “the whole is to the largest… as the largest is to the smallest.” What does that have to do with the number 1.618, the very exact golden ratio or Trump here or anywhere else?) Your words are silly, irrational, and unhelpful. But they go on…

You talk of Americans as if you are not one of them. Well, at least you intimate truth there, Tartar-thistle. Reading your post makes me want to weep despite my colossal truck in the driveway.

It is not those who seem the most imperfect who are most trustworthy and good. This particular bit of imperfection is, in fact, Donald Trump, and with respect to disinformation, it is a decidedly nasty and bad bit.

Trump is not Biden; Democrats are not Tartuffes (at least not the plurality of them), black is not white, and appearances are precisely what they seem when brought to the attention of genuine philosophers. What is your argument? Make it, please. There are things to do and about which to think.

祝你带刺的俄罗斯蓟。我希望你们的想法有共同点。

tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Wednesday, May 12, 2021 -- 2:26 PM

Hi there,

Hi there,

Although I did post my comments on the blog first, I also emailed them tocomments@philosophytalk.org, as it took me some time to write them down and I wanted to make sure whoever organized the show read them. I soon received an email in response, suggesting I post them so that other listeners could weigh in as well. Considering this invitation extended by Philosophy Talk, I can only assume my words were not impolite, out of order, or irrelevant to the discussion. It was my understanding that the blog was intended for listener’s feedback, so I wrote down my reflections after listening to the program. I certainly did not expect to be called names such a “Russian Thistle” and “silly, irrational, and unhelpful,” nor attacked as being un-American, especially on a philosophy discussion board affiliated with Stanford University. I’m an American housewife who enjoys gardening, and am not Russian. The thistle is one of my favorite flowers, hence my use of the name. I love the flower's metaphoric symbolism, as it combines beauty with fierceness and perseverance. I had no idea I might be mistaken for a Russian, and that Russians should not contribute comments here.

我不同意你说我没有争辩的说法。我的论点是这样的。当一个人在两个物理事物之间做出选择时,第三个选择就必然会被排除在外。对于感官知觉的对象,非此即彼的二元观念阻碍了思维,因为我们看不出两者之间的差别。我们看到两件事,但不知道它们的区别。三个或更多允许推理过程发生。二是防止它,制造虚假的对立和紧张。这既是一个逻辑问题,也是一个简单认知问题。请注意,传统上有三种思维法则(矛盾、排除中间和同一性),三段论有三个前提,柏拉图的战车类比有三个人物(两匹马和一个驭夫),柏拉图的身体/灵魂复合体的三部分划分有三个类别——对于理性和思想来说,三是一个极其重要的数字。

那么,为什么我们的政治体制中只有两个政党呢?这不是偶然的。3打开了空间,使感知发生,以及推理,挑战和质疑。2通过制造不平衡和施加紧张来阻止思考。理性存在于无知和知识之间。理性是不完美的——它不知道一切。这就是哲学家所渴望的,智慧。

The philosopher desires wisdom, because he or she doesn’t have it already. Philosophers are imperfect, incomplete, and in want of what they don't know. And it would be lovely to for once see such average, imperfect, and wanting people run for office against our two perfectly complete and domineering ideals: that of badness (commoners, the many/mob), and that of goodness (the few, the “experts” who know). This sort of dynamic excludes people like me, average housewives, but also working-class people of all colors and genders.

But then, who cares what we think. We're not welcome to participate in elections, or philosophy discussions for that matter. Shut up and serve, let the experts, the professionals, those who know everything already make all the important social decisions. Clearly they know what they're doing...

P.S. Pythagoras' Divine Ratio is definitely relevant to this discussion, as it deals with numerical relations between parts and wholes. That is, three distinct things: one thing, another thing, and the difference between the one and the other.

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Wednesday, May 12, 2021 -- 2:26 PM

Tartarthistle,

Tartarthistle,

Thanks for this response.

I don't know what a "genuine" philosopher is, but I think being a housewife does not exclude you or others from that title. Your response and thoughts are welcome. They have been in previous posts and are now.

我不隶属于本网站,也不隶属于本网站的主持人和嘉宾,或任何其他节目。请不要把我的语气当成是来自别人而不是我自己。这些正是本网站要实现的对话。

I am like you, a seeker of wisdom. I apologize for my response to your original post. I see now you did not intend to question reason, fact, and logic. But you did challenge each of these with your statement…

"Appearances are deceiving, as professional sophists and genuine philosophers are well aware."

It is 'sophistry' that is at issue in your post and my response, as it was for Socrates, at least if we can trust Plato.

Sophists were trained orators, often traveling teachers, who enabled students in law, business, and politics to use persuasive rhetoric and moral relativism to get along and gain an advantage in what we're in the time very diverse city-states.

苏格拉底,只有一个声音,西方思想的本质和基础,但只有一个声音,他熟悉诡辩家,拒绝他们的相对论定义,寻求真正的本质——也许这就是柏拉图的全部,我们永远不会知道。今天没有专业的诡辩家,只有无赖。特朗普或许就是其中之一。

Again, I apologize for my initial response. I mistook your words. They triggered a harshness that is itself not helpful. Please accept my apology. Thanks for your clarifications above. I see your point and will consider it directly.

这是一个动荡的时代。今天,共和党已经罢免了一名领导人,各州正在讨论合法化选民镇压,当地的枪支暴力达到了历史水平。请原谅我对诡辩和哲学这两个词在同一个句子里的敏感。他们不应该在那里,但我知道你在说什么。

在我们的体系中,并非一直存在两党。最初没有。在宪法或我们的权利法案中没有提到政党。《联邦党人文集》确实讨论了它们的弊端以及它们的用途。在殖民时期的美国,政党制度的产生与金钱和二分法有关;城市/农村,工业/农业,北方/南方,有地/无地,自由/奴役。所以从这个意义上说,二不是偶然的。然而,我不知道这是否是设计来阻止思考,制造紧张或不平衡。不是说不是,我不知道。我只知道数字3并没有什么神秘、神奇或逻辑的重要性。 Aristotle set his Laws of Thought as three laws as a start, but they have been fleshed out since his day.

我确实接受你的观点,3个更好地思考和考虑。2016年我们有很多共和党总统候选人,2020年又有很多民主党候选人。也许三个人总比两个人和一群人好。但在初选和大选中都有其他政党和候选人。这就是你的观点,我们经常忽略这些选项,只考虑两个选项。

Your response is not the one I was expecting if I was one at all. I'm still curious why you would point to Greenwald and his commentary of Wikileaks here. That is another hot button for me as many national security issues have been compromised both there and elsewhere recently, risking the livelihoods and safety of all US citizens. Rightly or wrongly, that is not a matter of disinformation as it is secrecy and security. It does threaten our democracy if that was your point, even if it opens the avenue to greater social justice in the long run.

Words can be misconstrued in any format. Sophistry, not so much. Calling Democrats Tartuffes while stating that Trump, who prides himself in his imperfections, even gloats about them, is worthy of more trust and goodness, there is no logical call to extend such kindness. If we can't agree to that. Let's talk.

无论如何,我很感谢你的回复,并将重新围绕它展开讨论。

Best,

Tim

tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Wednesday, May 12, 2021 -- 5:26 PM

Hi Tim,

Hi Tim,

你对我帖子的情感回应正是重点。特朗普的形象是故意设计来激起愤怒的。他大胆地拥抱“坏”。《不和之苹果》是他的游戏,他显然是高手。民主党人故意修改他们的审美,以与奥巴马对社会理想的公然蔑视形成对比,从而制造出一种质量差异的假象。他们表现出务实的自我编辑,口头上支持西方传统美德,如节制、智慧、勇气和正义。但在底层,就像特朗普一样,他们绝对允许自己触摸硬币。他们所拥有的黄金并不是神灵为了证明他们的社会地位而掺入他们体内的隐喻性的黄金,而是基本的货币。

There’s a reason why California has an unexpected $76 billion budget surplus this year. The wealthy class, the few, made bank while the many, the dirty uncivilized disobedient masses, were left stranded with no way of earning money during the shutdowns. This includes the many small businesses we see closing down all over the place. They could barely get by before Covid, and when forced to shut their doors they had no savings to fall back on. Stay home, stay safe, and starve is basically what they were told to do by those in power.

与此同时,那些在功能上负责指导社会的人,决策的专业阶层从他们在许多方面负责创造的条件中获利。我们现在所处的社会不平等的极端程度是一个经济政策问题。民主党人允许自己利用那些为工资而工作的人的软弱和脆弱来赚钱。我知道共和党人是怪物,但这并不能改变一个事实,那就是民主党人并没有真正地代表穷人或小企业的经济利益。近一半的美国人目前生活在贫困中,小企业是美国最大的雇主。

过去,普通美国人能够负担得起体面的住房、去艺术博物馆、看球赛、偶尔带家人出去吃饭。公共教育曾经质量很高,大学教育也很容易获得。所有这些东西现在都是奢侈品,主要为专业阶层和非常富有的人保留。现在,人们安全地呆在家里,拿着高额的公司薪水,在亚马逊(Amazon)上订购所有的商品,而穷人则在为生存而挣扎,他们被认为是在为整个社会(而不是一小部分精英)的利益引导社会。他们的社会功能与那些从事繁重工作(如洗衣、做饭和清洁)的人给予他们的有利视角有关。

Anyway, I have to stop writing so that I can cook dinner for my family. But before signing off, I must ask that you read Book VII, lines 523B - 524E of The Republic. The number three is far more significant with respect to reasoning than you suggest.

Fiercely yours,
Tartar thistle

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Thursday, May 13, 2021 -- 5:25 AM

Tartarthistle,

Tartarthistle,

You get a $1900 bonus check, and you complain that the boss isn’t doing his job? The majority of billionaires in the world live in California. The rich have been getting richer since 1970. Did you expect a pandemic to solve that? Deal with it. You are using words but not making sense, to me at least.

Democrats run your state, and you have a budget surplus. This is a problem, how? Some states would like this kind of problem. It looks to me like the current governor there is working to issue refund checks to those who earn less than 75000 a year. No Republican is going to get on board there. Your problems seem pretty first-world on a quick fact check.

I find your attack on Democrats misplaced as only a true Republican could. True confessions...I am a registered Republican. I attend party events and can attest that no social policy initiatives are coming from my party at present.

At the last dinner I attended, Governor Kristi Noem was the keynote speaker. Not a single public health bill, social reform, or even public works program was brought up. The speakers spent all night and my money congratulating each other on obstructing Democratic policies without offering a single effort to get our streets clean and our businesses supported.

你把特朗普等同于拜登、纽瑟姆和塔尔图夫。请停止它。这是最糟糕的诡辩和政治。

格劳孔不是科学家。柏拉图的《理想国》对人类认知没有根本的指导意义。数字对古典时期的古希腊人有着深奥的意义,但对现代世界来说却毫无意义。据我所知,没有任何科学研究表明,神经活动的增加或认知能力的明显提高表明世界杯赛程2022赛程表欧洲区数字3,序数或基数是原因。给我;我可能错了。柏拉图是在谈论他的形式,其中数字是一部分,仅此而已。

嗯,看起来你在之前的文章“黄金比例”上加了一个附注。

黄金比例与两个数字的差值无关。它是两个数之和除以大的数在这个例子中等于小的数比大的数。它是代数上的x^2 - x = 1,是一个实际的无理数(~1.618),与特朗普、格伦·格林沃尔德、朱利安·阿桑奇或柏拉图的《理想国》无关。这是通过联想和误导产生的虚假信息。

你给我们指明了格林沃尔德的位置。你指引我去柏拉图的理想国。让我来推荐一下Steven Pinker的《启蒙运动》。PT几周后会重播一个关于这个的节目。这是一个很好的阅读,揭穿了你上面的大多数事实陈述。事情好转了,主要是因为自由主义的政治和哲学。我不认为它能拯救我们,但情况好转了。

对我来说,这是一个做生意的绝佳环境。

I’m glad you are fierce. I was afraid you had taken offense. None is intended, ever. Apples aren’t oranges, however. Often I can’t tell if a poster is being sincere or what their motives are. I don’t doubt your sincerity at this point. Let’s reconvene this exchange on the Pinker show Can Reason Save Us? June 13, 2021. I would like to know your thoughts on that, as that indeed does hit back to this exchange.

tartarthistle's picture

tartarthistle

Saturday, May 15, 2021 -- 12:34 PM

感谢您的回复。

感谢您的回复。我会在日历上注明平克展的日期,一定要看。In the meantime, you may want to check out at this article on the Golden Ratio:https://phys.org/news/2021-05-golden-ratio-ancient-greek-formula.html

这篇文章发表在科学杂志phys.org上,它讨论了这个比例与当前技术的关系。我在上述文章中提到这个比例的唯一原因是,数学和艺术之间存在直接联系,从而使人类情感能够像乐器一样被演奏。这意味着,可悲的是,“我们人民”可以被怀有邪恶意图的无良演员扮演。我高度怀疑这就是我们两党制背后的愤世嫉俗的逻辑。我可能是错的,我希望是。但是,当传统的西方和东方的思想体系都建立在这样一种观念之上,即个人,乃至社会,是由三个截然不同的部分组成的:心智、情感和物质时,为什么这个体系会局限于两方呢?这三个社会阶层对应着这三个方面。当我们传统上认为自我和社会有三个截然不同的方面时,为什么会有两个方面呢?我们一般的和平、正义和平衡的概念与这三个部分直接相关。第二项显然会造成破坏。

也许我漏掉了什么…

总之,我得签字了,准备今晚的肉饼。我希望你喜欢这篇文章。

Your pal,
Tartar Thistle

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Monday, May 17, 2021 -- 10:07 PM

Tartar Thistle,

Tartar Thistle,

Thanks for this response.

I read Stephon Langston's post (https://phys.org/news/2021-05-golden-ratio-ancient-greek-formula.html.) I also downloaded his spreadsheet. It is pretty cool and fun.

I concede the Golden Ratio (GR) is ubiquitous. Beyond music and art, the GR is far more common in biology than physics. I'd go so far as to say life and the GR are inseparable.

That doesn't mean one is a causative agent of the other, however. If it were causative, it wouldn't necessarily mean the GR could be instrumental in the action of the other. If it were instrumental, it wouldn't necessarily mean art is this way. These statements, causation, instrumentality, and agency, are difficult, if not impossible, to prove without a doubt. There is good reason to think the GR is more a product of our biological view than a causative agent in its action. The eyes of the beholder are more fundamental than ratio, relativity, or grouping.

为什么我们会看到颜色?颜色真的存在吗?数学是否存在于人类的经验之外?人类和动物的情感是相似的还是截然不同的体验?生命的起源是什么?我们的世界?宇宙吗?You and I fundamentally disagree with the answers to all these questions.

我不会改变你的答案。但让我告诉你我的想法。没有头脑,只有头脑。所以从你的社会的不同部分敲一个基座。情感是一种人类和后天习得的经验。这是你们个人社会的另一部分。最后,你从来没有真正接触过任何东西。当然,我们可以推和拉,但永远不可能有两个物体在同一个地方或在一个较小的层次上接近。我们甚至不能确定某物在哪里而不失去它是什么。我不确定物理物质在这种情况下是否有什么意义。

That all three of these parts – mind, emotion and the physical world seem to be distinct is a mystery to me at least. But the greatest secret to me is the insinuation that they correlate to social classes. What is that about? I think you might want to get out of Diogenes' sun?

伯特兰·罗素开始了一场史诗般的探索,将语言解析为基本逻辑。维也纳学派的哲学家们(PT也在几周后举办一个展览)用逻辑实证主义运动(后来变成了逻辑经验主义)继续了这项工作。由于归纳法和集合论的棘手问题,这一运动在很大程度上被放弃了(在很大程度上是由同一圈子的成员推动的)。罗素还努力使数学成为一个独立的、完整的系统。库尔特·哥德尔(来自同一圈子)用他的不完备定理粉碎了这一努力。似乎数学和艺术之间几乎没有什么联系是无法通过结合艺术家的视角来解释的。

在接下来的几周,我们将看到许多质疑你们答案的想法。我觉得你没有错过什么。相反,你是在增加更多的东西。

Palsies for life,

Tim Smith

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Tuesday, May 11, 2021 -- 10:22 PM

这个节目打动了我。As Dean

这个节目打动了我。由于迪安没有书要卖,我的期望很低,但他关于如何处理隔离和虚假信息的言论和想法给我留下了深刻的印象。从现在开始,我一定要听他的节目。

My brain took in the very well received John Perry, as well. He is a devil for diversion, but he makes me think. If a Stanford or UC Riverside student paints a swastika, John should call them out. Whether this is disinformation or a symbol, it threatens our Democracy. Reed College students in Portland have been painting circle A s throughout Portland, Oregon, smashing windows while co-opting the masks of CoVid to carry out their antiestablishmentarianism. They, too, threaten our Democracy.

不知怎的,比起学生和年轻人,我更关心那些自私自利的老政客和他们的支持者。我将永远是一个杜威的哲学家,一个对我们面前的任务充满知识和关心的创造性民主的信奉者。

我们不仅需要大声说出那些愿意倾听的人的论点,还需要构建思想市场,这些市场已经形成,以强化超越验证之光的信念。亚利桑那州正在发生的事情让我感到震惊——在没有证件的情况下重新计票。我对选民被剥夺选举权感到不安。不知怎的,我对我们面前的任务有信心。即使不是所有的演员。

Citizens United is the heart of the problem. That needs a fix.

我们也不要在所有这些词中忽略气候。不管是不是假消息,如果我们不开始认真而协调一致的努力,让自己摆脱最近半个世纪执行非常糟糕的局面,一些事实将会自食其果。

Thanks for this show and most all the comments here. I am listening and thinking about your words.

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Friday, May 28, 2021 -- 5:24 AM

唷!真空袋为HOT。

唷!真空袋为HOT。在这件事上我不会偏袒任何一方。我只能说,政治是一种古老的游戏,甚至比民主本身还要古老。总有一些‘锅’说‘水壶’是黑的。这不是种族主义言论。我希望我的观点在过去的六年中已经得到了很好的说明。我今天向山姆·哈里斯组织提到,我听说美国国债达到了270万亿美元。注意这些是很多0。作为一个实际问题,现在谁在白宫并不重要。 Government ( not the CEO) is what government does. Partisanship appears to have gotten worse. But,I don't know if that is right. It may simply be that in the lights of transparency, it is just more obvious.