被我们祖先的罪孽玷污?

21 July 2014

本周,我们将讨论道德败坏和集体责任。我们会问这样一个问题:“我们会被我们祖先的罪恶所玷污吗?”你可能会认为答案是我们当然可以。亚当和夏娃吃了那只该死的苹果,用原罪玷污了全人类。现在我知道这是圣经的理论,但坦白说,我不明白。我从来没有得到过。Theyate the apple. Not us. Why would a loving God hold us – their descendants – responsible for whattheydid? What kind of divine justice is that??

Of course, it’s not just the Bible and religion. It's also the law that can taint us with the sins of others. A parent allows their underage kid to drive the car. The kid gets in a crash and injures some people. Who do you think they’re going to sue?

我想,你可能会说,未成年的孩子是一个特例。他们不会对自己完全负责。但他们仍有能力采取行动。一旦出了问题,总要有人为此负责。因为父母有责任照顾、喂养和养育他们的孩子,所以让他们为孩子的行为负责在一定程度上是有道理的,特别是当父母疏忽了他们对孩子的管理。

但不仅仅是对自己的孩子,一个人要为另一个人的行为负责。你是一个雇主。你的一个经理以升职为交换条件。即使雇员是一个完全能工作的、自主的成年人,你,作为他的雇主,仍然可能因为他的行为而被起诉。

Ah, but that’s because the law regards managers asagentsof their employers. And it’s quite generally true that when somebody is directly acting asmy agent, I can be held responsible for what they do. More generally, it seems that we can assign responsibility to agent x for the actions of agent y only when there is some special relationship between x and y that enables that. We’ve discovered two such relations – being the parent of and being an agent of. When x is the parent of y, x can be held responsible for at least some of y’s actions. When y acts as x’s agent, x can be held responsible for at least some of y’s action.

Perhaps we can rescue a more general principle by saying something like this. In general, I am responsible for all and only my own actions and not the actions of others. The only exceptions are when there is some special relations between me and the other – like when I am their parent or when they act as my agent.

The problem is that the so-called special cases can easily be made to pile up. And it begins to look like our general principle will get whittled down to almost nothing.

例如,假设美国决定入侵某个遥远的土地,夺取他们的油田,并建立一个傀儡政府,听命于美国。我想我会感到非常愤怒。但我也会有别的感觉——某种程度的羞耻。现在如果是俄罗斯入侵,我可能会感到同样的愤怒,但我不会感到羞耻。对我来说,以羞耻来回应俄罗斯在世界上的冒险主义似乎不太合适。问问自己为什么会这样?我认为答案很简单。我不是俄罗斯人。正因为如此,我对俄罗斯所做的事情——无论是好是坏——没有丝毫的责任。但我是一个美国人,正因为我是一个美国人,我可以被我的罪孽玷污,即使不是我父亲的罪孽,也是我的国家的罪孽。

我真的要为美国的所作所为负责吗?决定政策的官员,忠实、自愿执行政策的官员,不才是真正负责的吗?当然,他们承担了主要的责任。但我不认为我们公民可以完全逃避责任,尤其是在一个民主国家,特别是如果我们宽恕和支持这些政策。我们不能对以我们的名义授权政府做的事置之不理。并不是只有我们这些人在纵容和支持某种程度上负责任的政策。即使是那些私下里不赞成政策,但又害怕或懒得公开抵制的人,也要承担一定的责任。现在我承认他们的责任可能更有限。我怀疑,他们只对他们自己实际做过或没做过的事情负责——他们没有说出自己的想法。这并不意味着他们要为自己国家的所作所为负责。 But it does show that they too can be morally tainted by the actions of their country in a way that an outside non-resister cannot be.

And maybe, just maybe, things can get even more complicated. It seems plausible to me that you can be somehow tainted even by actions in which you played no part whatsoever, in which you neither did nor failed to do anything relevant to the problematic actions. Suppose that for several centuries your ancestors held my ancestors in slavery. Yours got richer and richer; mine got poorer and poorer. One day the slaves are finally free. But for decades, maybe even centuries after, the descendants of the slaves are much worse off than the descendants of the slave holders. Finally, we get to you and me. Just because you benefited from that history and I was harmed by that history, you and your brethren, may owe reparations to me and my brethren, even if you guys aren’t actively oppressing us guys anymore.

Or maybe you do. I don’t want to say that you definitely do owe us reparations. But I don’t want to say that you definitely don’t, either. I just want to say that the issue is a lot more complicated than we were first making it out to be. And what better way to clear it up than listening to our episode and/or contributing to this ongoing discussion here on our blog. I’m dying to hear what you think.

Comments(10)


SuzieQ45's picture

SuzieQ45

Monday, July 21, 2014 -- 5:00 PM

Professor Taylor, you are

Professor Taylor, you are obviously educated and sophisticated; in short, a highly-evolved human being. Unfortunately, most of the world's billions of inhabitants are far more primitive. Your proposal, to hold persons accountable for actions in which they personally took no part, is dangerous when seized by primitive individuals. The results of "the sins of the fathers" creed are all too evident in the Middle East, Africa, Pakistan, Northern Ireland, SE Asia, and possibly the former US slave states, to list but a few. In its most basic statement, the idea is this: your "people" (ancestors, ethnic group, religious congregation, race, nationality--whatever) harmed me, or my people. Therefore, you are accountable, and I may now punish you, and others of "your kind" for those transgressions. I don't understand how any rational person could find this fair or just. If someone wearing a green shirt assaults me, am I justified in blaming any and all who are similarly dressed? By your logic, I might be.
But beyond questions of basic fairness, this thinking can, and does, lead to violence and to such atrocities as ethnic cleansing and genocide. By way of example: if I know that a certain group holds me, my children and my children's children accountable for an evil act done by my great-grandfather, I have every incentive to regard members of the group with intense suspicion. Then, if my worst suspicions appear to be confirmed by a perceived threat, I might decide that to save my people, it is necessary to marginalize this group politically (denying them voting rights, e.g.), or to drive them from the area in which we live (economic isolation, segregation, or outright ethnic cleansing), or--should these measures fail--by mutilating or killing them. At this point, I would certainly be aware that now their people will blame not only me, but all of "mine" for what has happened. Logically, therefore, the solution might well seem to be to kill them all--every man, woman and child--in order that there be nobody left with a grudge against us. From an evolutionary perspective, ethnic cleansing and genocide are highly predictable responses to the "sins of the fathers" ethic.
As to the question of "reparations", let it go. Generations ago, slave owners (i.e., white people) did a gross injustice to Africans (i.e., black people) seized and delivered into slavery by Arab traders. All of the people who were involved in any part of that system are long dead. Furthermore, the system itself ended well before the majority of present-day Americans' ancestors arrived on the shores of the US. There can be no claim under any guise against these descendants of later immigrants--unless the "green shirt" example actually makes sense to you. Although the justice system of the US is undoubtedly flawed, its goal of holding accountable those who have actually transgressed is far superior to prosecuting the transgressors' descendants, along with anyone who looks like them, worships as they do, hails from the same part of the world, speaks the same language, etc., etc. Have you actually done the necessary research to ascertain exactly which "ancestors" were slave holders? Or who the "descendants" of these slave holders actually are? It seems to me that you are putting forth a blanket indictment of all white people in the US, regardless of whether their ancestors lived in a different country until after 1865, or were indentured servants themselves, or were, in fact, devout abolitionists.
At this point, I confess that I am feeling like I am rising to the bait. But I can assure you that I, as one of seven children of high school-educated parents, received no "wealth" from my parents. I went to college, working my way through, with little more than the clothes on my back. My parents did not, and in fact could not, provide me with cash to go to college. I can honestly say that I earned everything I have through the sweat of my own brow. Which brings me to my final comment: whoever our ancestors may have been, we (the 99%) have a lot more in common than you believe.

Ken Taylor's picture

Ken Taylor

Tuesday, July 22, 2014 -- 5:00 PM

SuzieQ45:

SuzieQ45:
I actually don't support reparations personally, partly for some of the reasons you lay out. I think we do a good job of sorting through the issue on the episode, so be sure to give a listen, when you get a chance. My own thought about reparations is that it is a bad way of framing a real issue, that can lead, in the hands of more "primitive" thinkers, to use a phrase of yours, just the sort of mistaken reasoning you outline. A better way is to think in terms of justice -- all kinds of justice, distributive justice, compensatory justice, etc. Basically if we look at the effects of the past on the present from the point of view of justice, we can see the past as having the effect of something like a lottery. But sometimes the lottery is rigged. And sometimes jusstice demands that we pursue policies that make up for the results of a rigged lottery. If we think of it in these terms, we get away from us thinking in terms of one person or group of persons paying reparations to another person or group of persons on the basis of what some long dead person or persons did or didn't do to some other long dead person or persons. We don't really need to trace lines of descent from past to present to figure out who owes what to whom as a matter of contemporary justice. We just need to figure out how best to ameliorate the contemporary effects of the rigged lottery.

MJA's picture

MJA

Thursday, July 24, 2014 -- 5:00 PM

I think it is best to learn

I think it is best to learn from our past, and that is reparation enough for me. =

Fred Griswold's picture

Fred Griswold

Friday, July 25, 2014 -- 5:00 PM

Regarding original sin, the

Regarding original sin, the thing about it is that according to Christian theology, before you can get into Heaven you have to be a sinner first, then you have to repent. That's why God has to provide us all with a sin of some kind. It wouldn't be fair to leave some of us out of the game. Original sin is a convenience afforded us by the Holy Maker just in case we don't have anything else to fall back on.

Mark Caplan's picture

Mark Caplan

Friday, July 25, 2014 -- 5:00 PM

Scientists of European

欧洲血统的科学家开发了治疗艾滋病病毒的药物,这可能使数亿非洲人免于过早死亡。也许其他人能想到欧洲血统的人对非洲人和全人类做出的一两个其他积极贡献。当我们计算谁欠谁什么时,这些积极的贡献减去了他们祖先的罪恶吗?还是我们应该只喋喋不休地谈论罪恶,假装积极的东西不存在?

Guest's picture

Guest

Sunday, August 17, 2014 -- 5:00 PM

The Bible makes sense if you

The Bible makes sense if you can accept that God isn't a magical being. Gad, the Father, lends DNA, and the apple that will surely kill you for the price of knowing good and evil would make a kid eat apples, and they should know they're going to die anyway.
我们仍然需要赔偿,政府应该解决按颜色进行分析的问题。至少,当非裔美国人搬进中上阶层社区时,住房市场受到了影响,所有的好房子都变得买得起了。美国的种族主义一直是愚蠢的,因为耶稣是有色人种。马丁·路德·金的演讲经常被命名为“我有一个梦想……”,因为白人可以接受这个。演讲的用词和地点都是经过精心挑选的,在意象和联想上都非常有力。我个人认为他会为了好玩而折磨白人如果他不理解需要有人站在亚伯拉罕·林肯的税收资助雕像下并要求人们承认痛苦和苦难,这些痛苦和苦难将长期持续下去。白人对待非裔美国人的方式可以分为几类导致了内乱和酷刑;歧视是一种委婉的说法。谁他妈会歧视谁用多少磅每平方英寸的水压冲洗?这可不属于为你爸爸的错误买单的范畴。 White bigots, to be open about it, judge on the merit of being not judged, and it's oxymoronic. How many African Americans would call is a sin and punishable by eternal damnation to covet your neighbors wife? It'd be a short and well devised hell, a hell on Earth.
But responsibility just is. It's not something to place feelings on. Grown ups don't have feelings unless they are emotionally unstable, if they wish to call on feelings to guide actions. That's absurd. We know enough, as a species, to do what makes common sense for problems that we can identify.
英国石油公司租了那个钻井平台,带着孩子的父母如果做了那些需要解决的事情,也许应该找个保姆或用其他方法解决他们的缺点,而99%的人不交易股票,所以我们在这一点上真的不能抱怨。责任不是我们能决定的,想要忽视它是很荒谬的。这不是一个选择;责任有一些隐含的因素,因此可以确定,可能有具体的处理方法。
So, my dad's father was mentally ill, and was such a horror to him that he doesn't see mental illness in himself. He has a downed power line, filed for bankruptcy after maxing out many many credit cards, neglected me as a child in many ways that were his legal responsibility, and assumes all responsibilities are of one who identifies a problem whether or not it clearly points to him. I have a mental illness and he'd like me to not have one. So, my father has slandered me and discussed me in ways that make him look like an asshole and an idiot. My dad would also like to see his influence on me, and while I had expressed that, it made me seem like a crude and novel person. His most recent offense was telling my niece racist jokes; and because I was so fucking offended, my niece can see the racism of '80s episodes of My Little Pony, where the white girl and white pony save the day. She's going to be the shit.
Anyway, if our government wanted to seize oil fields, and it were intolerable, each person can make choices in respect to that, to adequately respond; it'd be a fine time to order solar panels in bulk, or otherwise address that shit. My own senator seemed overly concerned with a simple difference for the Presidential qualifications of another country that was so similar to ours. So fucking what, perhaps? Don't you know we still use coal, only?

Guest's picture

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Thursday, June 2, 2016 -- 5:00 PM

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