Poetry, Philosophy, Truth
Guest Contributor

03 October 2007

Howdy folks;Troy Jollimorehere. Ken and John were kind enough to invite me to be their guest for the “Love, Poetry, Philosophy” show they taped at Powell’s City of Books in June. And now that the show is being broadcast, they were kind enough to invite me to blog for the show as well. I’m happy to take them up on it—keeping in mind that blogging is a very informal medium, and that what I have to offer may turn out to be no more than a few fairly random thoughts.

诗歌和哲学之间的关系之一是我们在节目中没有真正讨论的,至少我记得,与他们各自对真理的概念有关。我在这里其实是在概括,但我要声明的是,分析哲学,至少在传统实践中,是由一种(至少)有两个显著特征的真理概念所主导的。第一,它是命题性的,它以命题为真理所依附的主要实体。And second, it is unitary: it tends to take it that there isonetruth about any given subject matter. Thus philosophers are always looking for THE truth about something—THE proper analysis, THE correct understanding.

诗人往往不会这样想,部分原因是他们对真理的理解往往更多地与隐喻有关,而诗人自然倾向于多元主义者。如果我有一个关于x的哲学分析,而你得到的关于x的哲学分析和我的不一样,那么似乎,作为哲学家,我们有义务去找出哪一个是正确的;但是,他们不可能都是对的。但是,如果我有一个关于y的比喻,而你又提供了另一个关于y的比喻,我可以接受你的比喻是一个很好的比喻,而不必感到有义务(I)拒绝我已经提供的比喻的有效性,或(ii)表明在深层次上,两个比喻实际上是相同的。所以哲学家看待真理的方式和大多数人看待配偶的方式是一样的:你一次只能得到一个,所以接受他们是一个替换的问题。然而诗人倾向于把真理,至少在很多时候,更像朋友:你可以积累它们,你不需要摆脱早期的那些。

In a related way, poets put more emphasis on the role of pictures than on the role of propositions. After all, a set of true propositions about z need not constitute an adequate picture of z. The propositions may all be trivial and uninteresting and leave out what is truly interesting or distinctive about z. So poets, on the whole (again, I am generalizing terribly) are more interested in truth as it attaches to pictures, than truth as it attaches to propositions. Thinking about truth in terms of propositions makes us more inclined to believe in the ONE truth since, after all, any proposition must either be true or false, and so there can only be one complete set of true propositions about the world. But thinking in terms of pictures reminds us that any human grasp of this one complete truth is partial, and that in human terms, the idea of multiple distinct but not necessarily incompatible truths may in fact be one that makes a certain sense.

诚然,在许多诗人中,有一种“更全面”的理解的想法;当我们在头脑中添加更多的隐喻时,我们就会形成一幅更深刻、更丰富、更充分的世界图景,从而更好地理解它。我们学会从不同的角度看问题,用不同的眼光欣赏它们;开始理解为什么你不喜欢的东西对别人来说却很有吸引力;等等。On the other hand, I think many poets think that there is no such thing as acompleteortotalunderstanding—there is always the possibility of coming to understand something better, of adding another metaphor.

Some philosophers have held views something like this. Nietzsche, for instance, may seem to have had something very much like this in mind with his “perspectivism.” And like Nietzsche (at least in some of his moods), some poets may want to take this sort of thing too far, and give up talking about truth at all. This, I think, is an overreaction to the valid recognition that it is always perilous, and very often misleading, to talk about the ONE truth about anything. But on the whole, it seems to me that poets—even those who tend to feel nervous when the word ‘truth’ is bandied about—do believe in truth; it’s precisely what they are striving for when they search for good metaphors.

Comments(9)


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Guest

Wednesday, October 3, 2007 -- 5:00 PM

glad to finally have something in this perpetually

glad to finally have something in this perpetually empty space.
very introspective and inspiring to me.

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Guest

Friday, October 5, 2007 -- 5:00 PM

The generalization that poets tend not to think in

The generalization that poets tend not to think in concrete propositional terms is a bit overstated here. This sounds like a lot of postmodern nonsense. Good poetry, at least edifying, will be based on some form of propositional truth statement or concept, at least if it is to make any sense. It takes a perceived truth, a presupposition, and writes in poetic form. The Biblical Hebrew writers were quite adept at this.
One only needs to read Psalm 119, a Hebraic song/poem which is entirely based on propositional truth statements about the one true God. It is assumed throughout the psalm that God has spoken infallibly throughout the History of God's people and that His revelation is always true and never fails. However, this is done through poetic language, at least in the Hebrew originals.
For anyone reading this, there are poets who believe that truth is objective and can be known with confidence. They are in the Bible. The metaphors, the pictures, the analogies; they all point to God, whom all know, since we are created in His image.
我再一次提出如下的假设:如果一首诗要有任何关联,它必须基于真理的主张,基于一个人对真理是什么的假设。唯一能从我们的现实和任何类型的文学风格中找到意义的真理主张,就是基督教。

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Guest

Tuesday, October 9, 2007 -- 5:00 PM

Directed toward Wayne: Does "truth" exist in yo

Directed toward Wayne:
Does "truth" exist in your mind? Or in our collective minds? The latter is my opinion. It is relevant in this case, because when one chooses not to trust the "truth" of your organized religions, your presumptions are no longer the accepted truth. You sneakily spry past the argument here with your assertion that the acceptance of one true god is propositional in the first place. You then attempt to confirm your assertion by utilizing an ideology found in one particular religion.
我并不是说古代作家在他们所做的事情上做得不好,但我是说我在你的论点中看到了许多缺陷。
Therefore, I tend to agree with Mr. Jollimore on this one. I think the assertion that poetry (especially good poetry) often utilizes non-propositional truths is quite accurate.
Of course, all this, coming from an agnostic :P

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Guest

Saturday, October 13, 2007 -- 5:00 PM

Nietzsche had a different "perspectivism-ideas"; T

Nietzsche had a different "perspectivism-ideas"; The most significant one, though, is likely that of the evolution of morals vs. the damnation of self-awareness.
some thoughts on Nietzsche - aphorisms, truths, et c.- :http://www.theodora.com/books/polymorphosis/

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Guest

Friday, October 26, 2007 -- 5:00 PM

as it ever is with poets, pointing out what is pas

as it ever is with poets, pointing out what is passionate in humanity is the drive of the intent.
most times, the mindedness and self aware completeness refutes, as an individual, any consistant pattern of behavior that may be expressed as a philosophy.
as close as those so bent, can't, and whouldn't, apply a hickory dickory doc, as it were, ad hoc.

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Guest

Saturday, November 17, 2007 -- 4:00 PM

I like you "doc"/"hoc" bit, Troy. Say, speakin'

I like you "doc"/"hoc" bit, Troy.
Say, speakin' of philosophy and poetry, howz 'bout this lill' parody of George Harrison's "Awaiting On You All" (a.k.a. "Chanting The Name Of The Lord And You'll Be Free") that moi done did write, something....ain't it?
"Chantin' The Name Of The Turd"
(aka "Chantin' The Name Of Old Tor")
You may have a smooth grin
Your lies come out deadpan
great communicator, mental masturbator
spent decade vegetatin'
If you open up your heart
blood will gush right out
your emotions are in your brain
not in replaceable chest spout
By chantin' the name of old Tor and you will see
it's worthless as chanting the name of any ole deity
when earthquakes or giant storms come from the sea
it's as helpful as if you spent your whole life chantin' Gumby
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
You need to cut-a-fart
all life needs to make gas
if you're an instigator or alligator
you're gonna get recycled
If you open up your heart
blood will gush right out
charge gnomes in you chest rent
'cause they'll never help you out
By chantin' the name of old Tor and you will see
it's worthless as chanting the name of any ole deity
"god speed" or Lennon songs in space shuttles ain't worth a pee
when they go BOOM you're toast regardless of your theology
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
You do need some shelter
reporters love helter skelter
Invest in Mardi Gras' beads, not flood wall needs
and churches go a floatin'
If you open up your heart
there'll be a blood stream
don't let the creeps con you
with their minds so freakin' mean
George sang, "...Pope owns 51% of General Motors."
Harrison was pissed, he only owned 49% of GM stores.
Chant Jehovah, Krishna, Allah, Satan or Tor
they're equally worthless to help you, that's for sure
uuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre
Stay on Groovin' Safari,
Tor

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Guest

Saturday, November 17, 2007 -- 4:00 PM

while i was reading this little discussion on the

while i was reading this little discussion on the intent and perspectives of poets and poetry, i was wondering if any of you were poets? I am a poet, and I believe that the essence of poetry is something that no one knows how to categorize or define. As for the intentions of poets, there are as many as there are poets. In my case, the intent of poetry is to move into the various shades and experiences within the concept of being, testing and questioning what "it" is, through the doorway or window of language...
We are working with much more than words and cognitive processes in poetry. There is sound, rhythm, pictch, reverberation, sustain...most of the elements of music are found in poetry. The human psyche is an element of being that transcends intention and perspective, if you ask me. Where poetry fits in is a matter of how much risk you are willing to allow into your own, personal experience of the world.

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Wednesday, February 27, 2008 -- 4:00 PM

I have never understood the find the one truth

I have never understood the find the one truth aim of
Anglo-Saxon philosophy, though it is the tradition
I was trained in. It seems rather an assumption to me-
this one truth idea. How could it be proved?
And to what end?
It seems patent to me that there are different points
of view as to what truth is and what is true. How likely is it that one set of statements about what is truth and what is true will end up being indubitable by everyone? Is there such a thing as universal indubitability?
我认为这种可能性为零。如果毋庸置疑标志着真理——那么就不存在这样的真理,指望找到它是愚蠢的。
But I am not a relativist. I think the state of things is a certain way--is the way it is-- to individuals or groups of folk.
That is, though the form of truth, the particular view of the state of things, may vary between folk---each form is the truth in that it compels belief or admits of no doubt or arises as the case. And this compulsion characterizes all truth. There are ways things are but no one way things are.
Except of course, that in saying this I am assuming that my statements describe exactly the way things are.
我认为,这指出了,陈述的本质是它所陈述的就是事实。
但是,我不明白为什么必须得出这样的结论:一定只有一种情况——一种或几种可以永远被奉为神圣和不可改变的说法——可以永远强迫所有人。
Conclude from compelling ideas that there must be only one supreme set of compelling ideas? Doesn't follow to me.
Seems ridiculous to me, especially as
it goes contrary to any idea of progress--of ever greater understanding over time. All theories it seems to me, philosophical or scientific, must be tentative.
Einstein must replace Newton.
Newton is still valid---not because it is the one truth--but because valid from its point of view.
因此,我认为,就事物的状态而言,观点的概念比统一真理的概念更相关、更有效、更核心——在我看来,后者是一种误导和抑制的概念。
在我看来,对一个真理的假设显然与历史不符。
Further, It seems to me the notion of truth does not exclude degrees of truth and points of view which may not be compatible.
I am with Feyerabend in saying let
there be a multiplication of points of view--- and let there be analysis and criticism of each and every.
换句话说,让哲学成为它的核心:一种创造性的事业,一种思考的艺术,一种引人注目和理性的——对事物状态的愿景。
That it can all come down to all being either an X or a Y--but not both or either----seems entirely unconvincing to me. And even if I was convinced, my imagination would not tolerate such a limit.
Multifarious is more interesting!

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stevepet

Monday, May 30, 2016 -- 5:00 PM

有一个好老师?????

有一个好老师?????? ? ? ? ? ? ?能改变一个孩子吗?人生,一个事实,那么多??? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ?人们从经验或至少从无数????中知道? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ?鼓舞人心的电影吗? ? And better than average teacher ??"? ?????? ?????? quality is considered one of the most important factors if ?????? ???????? not the most important factor to improving ???? ??? ????? ??????? the nation?s ???? ??? ?????? ???????? schools as a whole ?????? ?????? .