破坏地球有错吗?

15 December 2011

This week's topic is, "Is it wrong to wreck the earth?"

I suppose the obvious answer is “yes”. The answer may be more obvious than the meaning of the question. We’re not asking if it’s wrong for me or you to wreck the earth for everyone else, but something more like whether the people that are currently alive and busy polluting the streams and rivers and oceans, warming the globe, killing off species, and the like, and thus making the earth a less agreeable place for future generations, are doing something wrong.

Is it really so obvious that the answer is Yes? Suppose we frame it like this. Those currently alive will somehow collectively decide between two options:

(i) Make minimal changes to the way we live, and leave future generations a very polluted, warm, earth. Or

(ii) make substantial changes to the way we live, at great cost to our own comfort levels, and leave a much less polluted, and less warmed up world to future generations.

There is a tradeoff; we live better, they live worse; they live better, we live worse. Why is it clear that it’s better for us to sacrifice and leave them better off? Here’s an analogy. A person is seventy years old, has a million dollars, and a disease that gives him five years to live. He has a struggling forty-year old daughter. He can live well for five years and leave his daughter a small amount, or he can scrimp and save his final five years and leave her comfortably well-off. It would be veryniceof him to do the latter, but it’s not clearlywrongfor him to do the former.

There is an important dis-analogy, however. The man might think that if his daughter works hard, she can earn enough on her own to be well off. He may pass up the opportunity to make her life comfortable. But he hasn’t thereby deprived her of the means of doing so herself.

But the damage we do to the earth can’t be undone. The parts of the world made uninhabitable by global warming can’t be recovered. The species that disappear can’t be brought back into existence. It’s one thing for a man not to share the money he has earned and saved with his daughter. It’s another for him to destroy the possibility of her doing as well for herself. And that’s what we’re doing, by wrecking the world the way we are.

还有另一种不同的类比,它可能指向另一个方向。在我们这代人对地球造成的破坏中,那些将处于最不利地位的人,那些将在本世纪末与被淹没的城市和无法运转的湾流作斗争的人,甚至还没有出生。他们不存在。我们真的欠不存在的人什么吗?这是一种相当令人费解的义务,不是吗?

Maybe so. But I think it’s wrong to suppose that the wrongness of wrecking the earth is a matter of mistreating some person or persons. I mean we have this whole big system, the ecosystem, the system wherein life of all sorts including human life evolved. Isn’t there something intrinsically wrong about harming the system that’s the ground of our very existence?

I think there is. Basicially, I think we should worship the earth. Wrecking it should be taboo.

But then, what if it turned out that the best thing for the system, considered as a whole, was for humans to disappear and quit screwing it up? Would I advocate that?

I’d have to think about it.

Our guest is Kathleen Dean Moore, a professor at OSU, where Sunday’s program was recorded. She’s co-edited a book calledFor All Time: Our Obligation to Save the Future---so I think we know where she stands.By the way, I have an article in it called, “Worship the Earth.”


Photo byThe New York Public LibraryonUnsplash

Comments(12)


Guest's picture

Guest

Thursday, December 15, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

i don't think the example of

i don't think the example of father and daughter fits the situation in wrecking the earth. we need to wreck the earth and we should wreck it according to our needs, not to miss-use the opportunity of living before the future generations. .e.g "i have seen many people are born with no upper lip, so what the doctor or surgeon does is that he cuts some part of his body mostly *thigh* and use it in healing the incomplete part" so, i don't think its wrecking. its wrecking for the greater good. same is the case with our earth. we need some resources for the development. future generations may blame us for wrecking the earth, but they must not forget we are gifting them a ready made development, science, technology etc. so, according to me the conclusion is " wreck it as much as it is needed"

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Thursday, December 15, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

I suppose there will be some

I suppose there will be some comments on this post. Some of those will center on mankind's obligations, based upon his/her consciousness of being. Inasmuch as I treat our existence as a fluke of evolution, rather than divine interventionism, I find any pontifications about the wrongness vs. rightness of "wrecking the earth" moot. I have written some things about this---but no one is listening----much, or yet. Pontifications can go either way, it seems.
Here is my own synopsis of the wrecking of the earth, in 500 words or less:
1. We will wreck the earth (for a time, anyway), because we can. Consciousness is our advantage, and our probable doom.
2. Carrying forward #1 a bit, our human consciousness, with all its advantages, carries particular disadvantages, among those denial, rationalization (are they the same, essentially?), arrogance and vanity. We seem to believe we can DO anything; FIX anything---some seers in faith have called these things vain imaginings. I agree, although not for the same reason(s).
3. The things that live on earth are but a fraction of those that have ever lived here. Mankind's centuries(?) are numbered, for the above-enumerated reasons and more. This is why science is searching for a way out; a place to go; and some way to get there. Scientists are realists and smarter than most of us---if anything can preserve the human species, science will do so.I'm not counting on it, though. I won't be here. And you won't either.
Dinosaurs had no say in their demise. We have all kinds of say, but it won't matter a flip. Chris Hitchens has died. I am sorry for that. Everything changes. Except human vanity-and rationalization...

Guest's picture

Guest

Friday, December 16, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

When we harm nature, be it

When we harm nature, be it the air, water, plants, animals, the dirt ourselves,
We truly harm only ourselves.
There are 7 billion of us now and we the Earth can't handle the load.
Global warming is a sign of the load, a fever, we are burning it up, ourselves up.
When the planet gets hot we get hot.
When the planet gets sick from the toxins and poisons we create,
We poison and get sick ourselves.
自然的毁灭就是自我的毁灭。
The only cure for our illness is not what they, our governments, and other countries (kyoto) and protocals, or even future technologies are going to do,
The solution is accepting our own true Oneness,
And not so simply: Self-control.
=

Guest's picture

Guest

Friday, December 16, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

破坏地球是错误的吗?

破坏地球是错误的吗?嗯。谁说错了?还是别的什么?我又想起了一位热爱生命的资深政治家(他的描述),以及他的书《热爱生命》(biophilia),出版于1984年,那是文学界神秘的一年,对吧?e·o·威尔逊(e.o. Wilson)两次获得普利策奖——对于一个出生于1929年的怪人来说,这已经是相当不错的成绩了。我认为这可以归结为:如果道德对任何人都有意义,我们就不需要进行这种讨论。的确,如果道德在任何程度上都是普遍有效的,那么这种讨论就没有基础了。相对主义者可能会争论任何事物的正确或错误——或者什么都没有。但是,事实就是:任何事情都不存在绝对主义。 When truth, itself, is argued as relative, there can be no agreement upon what constitutes truth. Which has led us to post-modernists, such as John Barth...hmmmmmm???

Guest's picture

Guest

Friday, December 16, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

Hey, is this a trick question

嘿,这是个刁钻的问题吗?我们想在这里待多久,或者更确切地说,我们关心我们可能在这里待多久吗?有一些思想家认为存在一种他称之为“历史效应”的东西。据我所知,他的合成,是我们自找的。当然,这不是一个新奇的概念。但是,哲学并不总是处理这个概念,因为这样做会侮辱人类意识固有的优越性。Hmmmmph。有一句古老的乡村谚语适用于各种情况:不要在吃饭的地方拉屎。古怪吗?也许。 But, it is your world---pretty much. I've got maybe, ten more years. So, WTF?
Yawn? OK---have a nice night. The world will not end tomorrow. But, if it did, would it matter? (see: Graham Martin)

mirugai's picture

mirugai

Saturday, December 17, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

PHILOSOPHERS IN A DEMOCRACY

PHILOSOPHERS IN A DEMOCRACY
乐观主义者肯在现在(和未来)的考验和磨难中看到了哲学家在解决问题中发挥积极作用的机会,因为我们独特的思维能力、理性和对其他观点的开放。约翰随口说了几句话,批评民主国家解决自身问题的能力。每次客座哲学家被问到这个问题时,她都回避这个问题。
民主,甚至我们美国的准民主或极端民主,永远不会寻求哲学家的帮助;民主的原则是智慧存在于多数人的意见中,允许少数人享有多数人指定的某些有限的保护。民主的批评者认为,民主的本质是一种诡计,目的是蒙骗大多数人的眼睛,操纵他们,让统治集团摆脱其议程。
哲学家们感兴趣的是不同于他们自己的观点,作为一种测试和提高自己的方式,并更接近他们难以捉摸的目标,如真理、正义和道德等。民主国家的成员不会容忍这样的人担任领导或顾问职务。
Sorry to tell you folks, Communism is the only state system where a philosopher might be consulted on state issues and policies, because only in that system is expertise solicited and it can become policy. Communism is about the state planning the path of progress, for the benefit of the society as a whole. To this end, the planning needs to be rational and thought out. These are the domains of the philosopher.

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, December 17, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

I think it is a bad idea--

我认为这是个坏主意,破坏地球,我是说。我非常喜欢阅读思想家的沉思和其他人类提升的例子,而我的许多年轻朋友还沉浸在流行文化和神奇科技的魅力中。我最喜欢的独行侠死了。我永远不会忘记那个倔脾气的人:克里斯托弗·希钦斯。再见,朋友。在读E.O.威尔逊(E.O. Wilson)的《爱生命》(BIOPHILIA)时,这本小书的第一章/随笔的最后一句话让我印象深刻:“人类之所以崇高,不是因为我们远远高于其他生物,而是因为对它们的了解提升了生命的概念。”威尔逊是天才,还是一个勤奋的科学家并不重要。重要的是他对错综复杂的行星平衡的敏锐洞察力和对事物之间相互关系的认识。昆虫学家应该对生物的复杂性有鉴赏力。EOW有这样的眼睛。
The little quote I cited above means little to anyone who has no notion of the big picture---no comprehension of deep time. Is the OSU of Dean's association Ohio State University or Oklahoma State University? I did not see a specific ID in your post. It's OK, though---I can look it up, with all our wonderous technology and all.

Guest's picture

Guest

Monday, December 19, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

Hmmm, mirugai, I just don't

Hmmm, mirugai, I just don't know. Communism doesn't seem to have worked out very well so far - and to relate it more specifically to the topic at hand, communist societies created the worst environmental disasters on earth so far. What used to be Lake Baikal is just one example.
For me, the question on wrecking the earth is very simple indeed. Do you spend your days wrecking your house, or do you care for it carefully and maintain it? Simply wrecking the earth is a lot like setting fire to your own living room. One can debate morally defensible positions, or even the existence of morals, or the relative value of current vs future vs past generations - but practicality invades. Wrecking the earth wrecks us, and that can't be anything but wrong.

Guest's picture

Guest

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

This is really difficult

This is really difficult question, becaouse the way we all function in everyday lives is so dependent on exploring fossil fuels that's it's hard to imagine how we could live without them. Of course it's very easy to say 'we just should use solar panels, and everything will be fine' but the truth is that it's all much more complicated. We should find some harmony between exploring nature and saving environment clean untouched.

Fred Griswold's picture

Fred Griswold

Thursday, December 22, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

Is it wrong to wreck the

破坏地球有错吗?这应该被视为一个道德问题吗?我不这么想。并不是说气候变化不是一个重要的问题。几年前在哥本哈根举行的气候峰会上说,如果地球温度升高,我相信是1.5摄氏度,非洲将有5亿人流离失所。那是“十亿”开头的“b”。现在,谁需要5亿人肉炸弹?所以很难想出一个比气候变化更重要的问题。难道它不应该成为一种道德戒律吗?如果这还不够重要,那还有什么重要呢? Maybe it's not in the Ten Commandments, but that's because global warming was not an issue in those pre-scientific days.
Moral precepts tend not to allow for exceptions. Maybe that's because they are distillations from many years of trial and error. "Thou shalt not steal", for instance, does not allow for any exceptions. But if you needed a loaf of bread to feed your family, you would probably be willing to make an exception, just for once. Now, climate change is not a simple issue. But making this into a moral issue would be a simplification, almost a compromise. To take one facet of this issue, saving energy, it's often said that we should all save energy - wasting energy puts more CO2 in the atmosphere, and that contributes to global warming. But I have my doubts about this; it sounds like oil company propaganda to me. The more time we spend saving energy rather than transitioning to better forms of it, the more the oil supply will keep dwindling, the more the price will go up, and the more profits the oil companies will make. If we relied only on clean, renewable sources, then Europe and China and everyone else could waste just as much energy as we do, and everybody would be happy. The only limiting factor would be how much you felt like paying for it. Now, opinions can differ on things like this; the point is that the issue is too complicated to raise it to the moral level.
I suspect that making something a moral precept tends to be a way of saying you just won't listen to any counter-arguments. But practical problems like this are full of twists, turns and surprises. Science and technology bring up so many new facts, questions and possibilities that trying to reduce a problem like this to a taboo just wouldn't work.

sheldon's picture

sheldon

Thursday, January 26, 2012 -- 4:00 PM

Dear John and Ken,

Dear John and Ken,
You know you guys annoy me. You say you "question everything" but you don't. You guys always take capitalism for granted. Even though you might describe yourselves as leaning left, you take capitalism for granted as a good thing. I could go back to several shows I have listened to, including this one, and this would be the case. Find some radicals and Marxists to interview.

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, February 11, 2012 -- 4:00 PM

I think such questions would

我认为,只要我们破坏自己的意识,在理性的基础上制造一种人为的冲突,而理性反过来又建立在我们普遍的唯物主义行为之上,这样的问题就会出现。
However, such conflicts are quite natural because there is an inherent conflict between human desires and damage to the Eco-system.